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Old April 26th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #4501
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Tubeman, why are there no services now on the North London Line from Camden Road through to the Primrose Hill junction and the stations on the Watford DC line, which is less circuitous to Willesden Junction than via Gospel Oak, and what is this link currently used for? Is it simply due to lack of patronage, and/or capacity on the line into Euston?
The line is very heavily used for freight currently, lots of container traffic from the North Sea ports to the Midlands and North.

I guess one reason is that the Watford DC line customers would rather all their meagre 3 trains per hour go into central London (Euston) than around the North London Line to Stratford. These 3tph combined with 6tph Bakerloo Line between Queen's Park and Stonebridge Park / Harrow & Wealdstone is adequate.

Once upon a time, trains would run down the DC lines via Primrose Hill to Broad Street, which was a useful service as it provided direct City trains... by the time Broad Street had closed and these trains were diverted to Liverpool Street, Network Southeast had run the service down to the point of destruction such that by the end there was one train, in one direction, each day... and that was often cancelled.

The only station that closed (Primrose Hill) was never well used due to the proximity of Chalk Farm tube, so not a huge loss.

There have been proposals to run a Stratford to Queen's Park LOROL service using this line if / when the Bakerloo Line takes complete control of Queen's Park to Watford Junction, thus keeping open Kilburn High Road, South Hampstead, and allowing Primrose Hill to re-open. This would mean the end of the Watford DC service.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:00 AM   #4502
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Thanks!
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #4503
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Dunno... but there certainly seems to be a hell of a lot!

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...ll-future.html

I wonder why this is still happening? I thought they carried out all essential work during the three month closure?
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Old April 27th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #4504
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I wonder why this is still happening? I thought they carried out all essential work during the three month closure?
Really don't know, passed over the line between Highbury and Canonbury on a 19 bus on Sunday and there were workmen all over the track by Canonbury West Junction (where the goods-only Canonbury Curve to Finsbury Park joins). I noted that the curve had been lifted for a few weeks over the Winter but has now re-appeared, so maybe it's just track-laying or resignalling.

There's a UK forumer who's a LOROL driver along that route, I can ask him.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 12:34 PM   #4505
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If only they double-tracked and electrified the Curve to Finsbury Park at the same time! :-)
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Old April 28th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #4506
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If only they double-tracked and electrified the Curve to Finsbury Park at the same time! :-)
Its is electrified, and that's why it's only single track... It was originally double, but when OHLE was installed it was singled due to clearance. If it were to remain double, the track would have needed to be lowered, which is no mean feat (was done through the Hampstead Tunnel in 1995-1996).
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Old April 29th, 2011, 01:02 AM   #4507
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Well they should do that then. I won't be satisfied until I can catch a train at Finsbury Park and head down to Shoreditch without changing. That change at Hi&I is *such* a drag ;-)

Here's a question - how do you feel about the Overland increasingly being dubbed 'The Ginger Line'? it seems to be catching on...
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Old April 29th, 2011, 11:21 AM   #4508
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Well they should do that then. I won't be satisfied until I can catch a train at Finsbury Park and head down to Shoreditch without changing. That change at Hi&I is *such* a drag ;-)

Here's a question - how do you feel about the Overland increasingly being dubbed 'The Ginger Line'? it seems to be catching on...
That was proposed originally, but you end up with conflicting train paths at Canonbury with the Stratford - Richmond / Clapham Junction and East London Line - Finsbury park trains crossing, which can only be resolved with an expensive flyover or diveunder.

Regarding 'Ginger Line'... that colloquialism has passed me by!
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Old April 29th, 2011, 05:56 PM   #4509
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Quote:
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Well they should do that then. I won't be satisfied until I can catch a train at Finsbury Park and head down to Shoreditch without changing. That change at Hi&I is *such* a drag ;-)
You have to run a lot of trains to justify doubling such short bit of track if it costs a lot to double that part.

(deja vu...)

If it for example takes 3 minutes for a train to go through that curve, any delayed train in one direction cannot delay a train in oppisite direction more than 3 minutes, and if the trains ain't that much delayed in the first place then there is no extra delays introduced at the short single track section.

I assume the crossing paths that Tubeman refers to is a bigger problem here... (On the other hand, in theory the Stratford service could be diverted to Finsbury Park and the Richmond service diverted to Shoreditch, but that would probably not make much sense...)
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Old May 1st, 2011, 04:19 PM   #4510
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I wondered why the Overground Watford-Euston didn't go from South Hampstead to Camden Rd, and then continue onto the ELL. Also, are there any plans to number or code the lines on the tube map? Would it be beneficial? Same with the DLR.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 09:25 AM   #4511
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I wondered why the Overground Watford-Euston didn't go from South Hampstead to Camden Rd, and then continue onto the ELL. Also, are there any plans to number or code the lines on the tube map? Would it be beneficial? Same with the DLR.
I would suspect the majority of commuters would prefer that service to take them to Euston.

As for line numbers/codes, I do feel that a certainly amount of increased clarity would be useful throughout the service. On the DLR and Overground, it is not immediately apparent to the uninitiated where some of those services run, especially as those networks grow with new branches appearing over time.

Similarly, the District Line especially could be teased apart, rather like the Hammersmith and City has been distinguished from the Metropolitan with a separate colour code and name. I think it's currently five distinct services treated as one line. I know the New York subway has complex services which are distinguished by letter and number codes.

Any good ideas for increasing clarity?
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 10:03 AM   #4512
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I wondered why the Overground Watford-Euston didn't go from South Hampstead to Camden Rd, and then continue onto the ELL. Also, are there any plans to number or code the lines on the tube map? Would it be beneficial? Same with the DLR.
As CairnsTony says... the customers would rather have a direct Central London train than an orbital service, they only get 3tph as it is.

If / when the Bakerloo service takes over the entire DC line north of Queen's Park, I think the plan would be for LOROL services to start from Queen's Park and run to the NLL via Primrose Hill, keeping Kilburn High Road and S Hampstead open, and re-opening Primrose Hill... although to be brutally honest all 3 stations have adjacent LU stations and wouldn't be a huge loss if they were not open, especially if they've lost direct trains to Central London.

Regarding numbering different services on LU lines and DLR, yes I think there is benefit to it, as stations like Earl's Court are utterly bewildering to tourists. We are driving to make our customers more and more self-sufficient (i.e. less reliant on staff), and making the presentation of the Tube map more logical in this manner is one obvious way to reduce customer / staff interactions.

I think there'd be resistance to it internally though, as it would depart too far from Beck's classic design and be unpopular with Londoners (who know where they're going, but value the map as a design icon)... But the map should be functional first and foremost.

The slight fly in the ointment is that while service patterns settle down off-peak, they do funny things in the peaks and at the extremes of the traffic day so the enhanced Tube map would only be depicting off-peak / weekend patterns (which to be honest is the most useful for tourists / leisure users anyway, daily commuters don't need the map).

But yes, I think elements of each line should be numbered. Lines can still retain their name / colour identity, but then have services numbered within that... I like the NYC way of displaying this:



Simple and unmissable for a confused tourist. In this example, Purple 7 could be Metropolitan Line Amersham to Baker Street fast (for example).
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 06:01 PM   #4513
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Th only downside to the NY system is that they have two symbols for each line. The dot mean the train is a local, and the diamond means the train is an express.

Plus, since they introduced the "New Tech" cars the dots have become circles and the circles are sometimes not complete. I don't know what that means, but that's how it is.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 11:27 AM   #4514
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Th only downside to the NY system is that they have two symbols for each line. The dot mean the train is a local, and the diamond means the train is an express.

Plus, since they introduced the "New Tech" cars the dots have become circles and the circles are sometimes not complete. I don't know what that means, but that's how it is.
But since you don't have 'local' and 'express' services in London, that shouldn't be an issue. A simple numbering system would be great for increased clarity of the different service patterns on the more complex lines I reckon.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 06:52 PM   #4515
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If / when the Bakerloo service takes over the entire DC line north of Queen's Park
I hadn't heard of such a plan. Would that mean removing the 313s from service entirely, and if so, what would become of the DC lines from Primrose Hill to Euston? Would they just be converted to AC, or is the plan to completely configure the Euston "throat" as part of High Speed 2?
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 07:36 PM   #4516
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Tubeman: http://londonist.com/2011/05/tfl-moo...st-pancras.php

Thoughts?
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 07:50 PM   #4517
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I'd like a map where the thickness of the lines is proportional to the number of TPH.

It was a bummer to arrive at Clapham Junction on a sunday and realise that the train to Kew Bridge only has 1TPH and it's something like 45 minutes to the next departure... Of course the TFL journey planner could probably had solved the problem in a more elegant way than waiting 45 minutes, but I don't have a smartphone and the phone shops I visited weren't willing to sell a PAYG mobile broadband sim card witouth also selling an unneccesary dongle, so my netbook had to stay at the hotel...


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But since you don't have 'local' and 'express' services in London, that shouldn't be an issue. A simple numbering system would be great for increased clarity of the different service patterns on the more complex lines I reckon.
Metropolitan has local and express services... but that's an exception...
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 09:40 PM   #4518
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I hadn't heard of such a plan. Would that mean removing the 313s from service entirely, and if so, what would become of the DC lines from Primrose Hill to Euston? Would they just be converted to AC, or is the plan to completely configure the Euston "throat" as part of High Speed 2?
Class 313s have already been replaced by Class 378s, but they battle on operating the ex-Great Northern & City line into Moorgate (now London's oldest NR train stock as established before).

The DC lines from Camden Junction to Euston are dual-electrified anyway... Primrose Hill to Kilburn High Road is 3rd rail, then 4th rail from there to Harrow & Wealdstone.

The deep tunnels at Camden Junction which take the DC lines under the shallower main line junctions to provide grade-separated routes to Primrose Hill and towards Euston, and the northernmost Primrose Hill tunnels used by the DC lines only, are all fairly unusual on NR as they are purpose-built deep level single bore cast iron tubes (so like older LU tubes but bigger diameter - the only other example I know of is the GNCR). This precludes 25kv AC OHLE without the enormous expense of widening, so any trains passing through these tunnels always will need to be 3rd rail, so a potential Queen's Park to Stratford service would need to raise / lower pantographs at Primrose Hill.

By virtue of linking the AC North London Line with the DC southern region, LOROL will probably always need dual electrified stock, although minimising pantograph raising / lowering is desirable so (for example) a Queen's Park to New Cross service would be a bit silly, with the route going DC - AC - DC every single trip.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 09:50 PM   #4519
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Well for a start that's a metro system most decent sized cities would be envious of!

What can I say?... if realised, this would be great. However, Crossrail 1 removes some of the impetus from DLR having any expensive westward extensions. Even the relatively cheap (because it's mostly above ground and crossing brownfield land) Dagenham Dock extension has been shelved under the current mayorship, so I don't think any tunnelled options with expensive deep-level interchanges in Central London have got a hope in my lifetime.
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Old May 3rd, 2011, 10:57 PM   #4520
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But since you don't have 'local' and 'express' services in London, that shouldn't be an issue. A simple numbering system would be great for increased clarity of the different service patterns on the more complex lines I reckon.
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Metropolitan has local and express services... but that's an exception...
I don't know if this counts as an "express" but look at this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGqtWhcLMc
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