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Old May 3rd, 2011, 11:28 PM   #4521
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I don't know if this counts as an "express" but look at this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGqtWhcLMc
Network Rail stations can be passed through at line speed, unlike LU stations.

LU stations have a 5mph speed limit at the station starter signal due to a short 'overlap' beyond the signal (increases capacity)... I explain the principle a bit here (Q2)... the exception is platforms designed for through running like Turnham Green and Ravenscourt Park on the Piccadilly Line, there are a couple of other anomalous examples like West Brompton westbound, because the station used to be closed sundays, you are allowed to non-stop at 25mph.

Long and short, if an LU train is running empty back to depot anywhere between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone, between Wimbledon and East Putney (signalled by NR), or between Gunnersbury and Richmond, the drivers don't need to slow to 5mph passing through the stations, they just have to observe line speed whatever that is.

A few late-night trains on the District Line used to detrain at Wimbledon and run empty to Parson's Green... I used to love hammering through Wimbledon Park and Southfields at 45mph
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Old May 4th, 2011, 06:23 PM   #4522
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tubeman, can you get this javelin train from st pancras to stratford yet?
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Old May 4th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #4523
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Network Rail stations can be passed through at line speed, unlike LU stations.
I only now noticed that it was an Network Rail station. I had to look again after i saw this.

But where exactly is the LU and NR connected?

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LU stations have a 5mph speed limit at the station starter signal due to a short 'overlap' beyond the signal (increases capacity)... I explain the principle a bit here (Q2)... the exception is platforms designed for through running like Turnham Green and Ravenscourt Park on the Piccadilly Line, there are a couple of other anomalous examples like West Brompton westbound, because the station used to be closed sundays, you are allowed to non-stop at 25mph.

Long and short, if an LU train is running empty back to depot anywhere between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone, between Wimbledon and East Putney (signalled by NR), or between Gunnersbury and Richmond, the drivers don't need to slow to 5mph passing through the stations, they just have to observe line speed whatever that is.

A few late-night trains on the District Line used to detrain at Wimbledon and run empty to Parson's Green... I used to love hammering through Wimbledon Park and Southfields at 45mph
Huh. I had no idea. I knew that none of the tube stations were designed for through running(at speed), but i thought most(if not all) of the outdoor stations were. I learn something new every time i come here.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #4524
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tubeman, can you get this javelin train from st pancras to stratford yet?
You can catch a Southeastern commuter service which does the same job (St Pancras to Stratford non-stop), same trains. I'm not sure if they'll be shuttling just between St Pancras and Stratford during the games, I presume so.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 09:12 PM   #4525
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I only now noticed that it was an Network Rail station. I had to look again after i saw this.

But where exactly is the LU and NR connected?
There used to be many more connections... But to my recollection:

West Ruislip (beyond end of Central Line onto Chiltern)
Barking (new connection between eastbound District and NR GOBLIN route)
Queen's Park (Bakerloo runs over NR beyond here to Harrow & Wealdstone)
Gunnersbury (District runs over NR beyond here to Richmond)
East Putney (curve from here to Wandsworth Town)
Wimbledon Park (access to SWT Wimbledon Park depot washer road)
Wimbledon (link from District Line across to NR)
...and between Harrow-on-the-hill and Amersham Chiltern run over LU tracks

Regarding the two examples of LU trains running over NR tracks, there are additional connections (technically NR to NR) at Richmond (indirect via platform 3), and Willesden Junction (to Kensal Rise).

As I say, there used to be many more. London Transport went on a big purge of isolating itself from British Rail in 1972 and cut many connections (e.g. Ealing Broadway, Leyton)... there used to be many British rail goods yards served via LT lines until the mid-1960's, a vestige of the fact that some LT routes used to be BR or its predecessors (i.e. the Northern Line Barnet branch and east end of the Central Line).

Last edited by Tubeman; May 5th, 2011 at 01:40 AM.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 10:08 PM   #4526
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Like i said: I learn something new every time im here! Thanks Joe.
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Old May 4th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #4527
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Like i said: I learn something new every time im here! Thanks Joe.
No problem, I aim to please
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Old May 5th, 2011, 12:22 AM   #4528
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...and between Harrow & Wealdstone and Amersham Chiltern run over LU tracks
you mean from just north of Harrow-on-the-Hill to just north of Amersham (Mantles Wood Junction).
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Old May 5th, 2011, 01:40 AM   #4529
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you mean from just north of Harrow-on-the-Hill to just north of Amersham (Mantles Wood Junction).
That too
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Old May 5th, 2011, 02:06 AM   #4530
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By virtue of linking the AC North London Line with the DC southern region, LOROL will probably always need dual electrified stock, although minimising pantograph raising / lowering is desirable so (for example) a Queen's Park to New Cross service would be a bit silly, with the route going DC - AC - DC every single trip.
Unless you just restored the 3rd rail from H&I to Primrose Hill and had the northern pair of lines as AC, segregating the services
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Old May 5th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #4531
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Unless you just restored the 3rd rail from H&I to Primrose Hill and had the northern pair of lines as AC, segregating the services
Re-installing recently removed conductor rails is a bit daft though, surely?
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Old May 8th, 2011, 02:54 PM   #4532
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Re-installing recently removed conductor rails is a bit daft though, surely?
Wouldn't go so far as to call it daft. Case in point, they removed Canonbury Junction for quite some time during the LO works, and IIRC, have just restored it.

They removed the conductor rails because the overarching principle is to run as much as possible on AC (one of the reasons being, as you say, to minimise changes), which is why the NLL is now only DC south of both Westway (near Shepard's Bush) and Acton Central, and Westway is only because of the H&C Line's signalling (apparently). Once that's sorted, Clapham Junction becomes possible. South of Acton Central will always be a problem due to the need to share with the District Line.

The plan is to use the northern pair between Camden Road and H&I for freight only though, so all four need to be AC. If plans change (and I think they might, over time), then as I say, there will be Watford-Primrose Hill on DC, Primrose Hill-Canonbury on AC, then either Canonbury-Stratford on AC, or Canonbury-ELL on DC. For the sake of a tiny stretch of railway and the loss of the freight loops, you get to remove the changeover and run the whole route Watford-ELL as one long DC stretch with very little extra infrastructure required.

The freight loops can be added elsewhere. I think a rebuilt Primrose Hill could easily manage a pair of loops on the outside of the platform lines...not sure if they'd be long enough though. I'm sure creative options could solve the problem though.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 11:36 PM   #4533
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Wouldn't go so far as to call it daft. Case in point, they removed Canonbury Junction for quite some time during the LO works, and IIRC, have just restored it.

They removed the conductor rails because the overarching principle is to run as much as possible on AC (one of the reasons being, as you say, to minimise changes), which is why the NLL is now only DC south of both Westway (near Shepard's Bush) and Acton Central, and Westway is only because of the H&C Line's signalling (apparently). Once that's sorted, Clapham Junction becomes possible. South of Acton Central will always be a problem due to the need to share with the District Line.

The plan is to use the northern pair between Camden Road and H&I for freight only though, so all four need to be AC. If plans change (and I think they might, over time), then as I say, there will be Watford-Primrose Hill on DC, Primrose Hill-Canonbury on AC, then either Canonbury-Stratford on AC, or Canonbury-ELL on DC. For the sake of a tiny stretch of railway and the loss of the freight loops, you get to remove the changeover and run the whole route Watford-ELL as one long DC stretch with very little extra infrastructure required.

The freight loops can be added elsewhere. I think a rebuilt Primrose Hill could easily manage a pair of loops on the outside of the platform lines...not sure if they'd be long enough though. I'm sure creative options could solve the problem though.
Hmmm... The Canonbury Curve was recently lifted then restored to renew the track, not really analogous with the 3rd rail being ripped up on the NLL which was supposed to be permanent.

The current configuration between H&I and Camden Rd sees a pair of 'up' and a pair of 'down' roads, not goods to the north and passenger to the south like before (up/down/up/down). The two middle roads are passenger, the two outer roads are effectively very long goods loops (hence Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury was recently reconfigured from having side platforms flanking the southern tracks to a single island platform between the central passenger roads).
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Old May 15th, 2011, 12:40 AM   #4534
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Hey Joe, has there ever been a systemwide power failiure in the Underground?

We had one a couple of days ago.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 12:06 PM   #4535
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Hey Joe, has there ever been a systemwide power failiure in the Underground?

We had one a couple of days ago.
Yes I do remember one a few years ago when I was on the District Line, it was pretty disastrous... fortunately I wasn't on shift at the time. It was a wider National Grid issue rather than anything to do with LU infrastructure.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 07:08 PM   #4536
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Yes I do remember one a few years ago when I was on the District Line, it was pretty disastrous... fortunately I wasn't on shift at the time. It was a wider National Grid issue rather than anything to do with LU infrastructure.
Wow. I imagine that must have been pretty stressful for those working.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 12:36 AM   #4537
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Wow. I imagine that must have been pretty stressful for those working.
Pretty chaotic... Obviously electricity is any metro's life-blood, it goes much further than just power to trains, it's signalling (including knowing which trains are where), communications, lighting in stations...

Very bad time of day too (18:20)
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Old May 18th, 2011, 01:06 AM   #4538
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Pretty chaotic... Obviously electricity is any metro's life-blood, it goes much further than just power to trains, it's signalling (including knowing which trains are where), communications, lighting in stations...

Very bad time of day too (18:20)
The obvious bonus question is how much does have battery/diesel backup?

I assume atleast emergency lights have some alternative power source, but does anything else have alternative power?

For example it would probably be a rahter good thing to have battery/diesel power for the signalling system on the Metropolitan line that is shared with Chiltern... On the other hand, Metropolitan trains would probably be stuck on the tracks so Chiltern wouldn't be able to run anyway?

(Bonus-bonus-question: can a chiltern DMU coulple with LU S-stock or A-stock and would it be ok to run that way when DC power is lost, or are there safety/brake issues preventing this (with or without passengers))?

I understand if some questions can't be answered in a public forum if they for some reason are considered classified somehow.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 11:01 PM   #4539
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The obvious bonus question is how much does have battery/diesel backup?

I assume atleast emergency lights have some alternative power source, but does anything else have alternative power?

For example it would probably be a rahter good thing to have battery/diesel power for the signalling system on the Metropolitan line that is shared with Chiltern... On the other hand, Metropolitan trains would probably be stuck on the tracks so Chiltern wouldn't be able to run anyway?

(Bonus-bonus-question: can a chiltern DMU coulple with LU S-stock or A-stock and would it be ok to run that way when DC power is lost, or are there safety/brake issues preventing this (with or without passengers))?

I understand if some questions can't be answered in a public forum if they for some reason are considered classified somehow.
Emergency lights on trains and stations are fed off batteries, which are charged by mains power when it's on. They last for a while, but are obviously finite. Train batteries feed a small number of strip lights in each car, maybe 4, you can see which ones when the train goes over rail gaps (e.g. crossing pointwork), not all car lights will go out. Station batteries are called 'OLBI'... forget what that stands for... but they power emergency lighting, communications equipment, and fire detection equipment.

There are no back-up generators on trains or stations, but I guess the Network Operations Centre (NOC) and signalling control rooms might have some sort of generator back-up.

LU and NR train stocks can't push / pull each other in an emergency, but incompatible LU stocks can do so via an 'emergency coupler'... basically just a lump of metal which clamps onto the coupler 'tongues' (but only surface-surface or tube-tube). It was one of these that failed, nearly causing disaster on the Northern Line a few months ago, when the defective rail grinding train broke away from the 1995TS that was towing it and ran downhill from Archway.
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 12:04 AM   #4540
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Train batteries feed a small number of strip lights in each car, maybe 4, you can see which ones when the train goes over rail gaps (e.g. crossing pointwork),
Why is this not the case on the central line?
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