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Old June 10th, 2011, 04:09 PM   #4561
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Originally Posted by siamu maharaj View Post
Hey Tubeman!

Can you please tell me why do fully automated subways have light signalling? I've noticed it in Singapore. Without a driver what's the point in red/green lights?
It is not uncommon to still have a colour light station starter signal to indicate whether the road ahead is clear enough for a train to depart and clear the platform area. This would be an instant indication to staff either on the train or platform if the train hasn't moved off past its usual dwell time (i.e. because the train ahead is too close).

They can also be used if the ATO fails and trains have to be driven manually, but obviously this would be at much lower speeds / frequencies than under ATO.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 12:01 PM   #4562
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Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It is not uncommon to still have a colour light station starter signal to indicate whether the road ahead is clear enough for a train to depart and clear the platform area. This would be an instant indication to staff either on the train or platform if the train hasn't moved off past its usual dwell time (i.e. because the train ahead is too close).

They can also be used if the ATO fails and trains have to be driven manually, but obviously this would be at much lower speeds / frequencies than under ATO.
Thanks. A sorta related question - I know it's almost 100% impossible, but let's suppose an automated train starts moving while the light's red, is it expected from the passengers (because the one at the front can see the lights) to use the emergency stop button/lever in the train? I personally wouldn't do that myself but always wondered about it when in the subway.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 12:11 PM   #4563
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Originally Posted by siamu maharaj View Post
Thanks. A sorta related question - I know it's almost 100% impossible, but let's suppose an automated train starts moving while the light's red, is it expected from the passengers (because the one at the front can see the lights) to use the emergency stop button/lever in the train? I personally wouldn't do that myself but always wondered about it when in the subway.
Well I guess there's nothing stopping a passenger operating the Emergency alarm on the train or emergency stop plunger on the platform any time they see fit... They'd just better have a good reason!

IIRC on the Victoria and Central Lines the 'station starter' signal is a simple white light that is either on or off, so there'd never be a red light.

The Jubilee Line doesn't even have this, as all signals are in the cab (when it's time to depart, a 'target point' distance ahead flashes up on the console). All the conventional signals south of Dollis Hill have been covered up pending removal. The other difference between the Jubilee and existing ATO lines is the absence of emergency stop plungers on the platform.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 05:01 PM   #4564
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Hi

Do you have any idea what the working happening at Kings Cross sub-surface line platforms are, and why they're it taking so long??

Thanks
James
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Old June 18th, 2011, 08:58 PM   #4565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Well I guess there's nothing stopping a passenger operating the Emergency alarm on the train or emergency stop plunger on the platform any time they see fit... They'd just better have a good reason!

IIRC on the Victoria and Central Lines the 'station starter' signal is a simple white light that is either on or off, so there'd never be a red light.
At Oxford Circus WB on the Central the station starter is three aspects. Green, White and Red.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 09:19 PM   #4566
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Hi

Do you have any idea what the working happening at Kings Cross sub-surface line platforms are, and why they're it taking so long??

Thanks
James
I have no idea. I stepped off the front of a Met train on the Eastbound last Monday for my usual speedy exit to street level, only to be greeted by a hoarding and a horrible throng of people trying to get out of the one remaining exit halfway down the platform.

It seems very strange as that exit, along with the entire station, has only just been refurbished. The hoardings say 'Network Rail', so I can only assume it's to do with the new ticket hall on the side of King's Cross station... and access to it.

Hope it's short-lived... it's a pain in the arse!
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Old June 18th, 2011, 09:24 PM   #4567
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At Oxford Circus WB on the Central the station starter is three aspects. Green, White and Red.
There's an article on Central Line signalling here

Still doesn't quite explain why there are 3-aspect signals and why they're in the locations they're found though
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Old June 19th, 2011, 11:04 AM   #4568
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I was having another look at your rail atlas today and was reminded of just how many tube stations have actually closed for good. Some I'm sure were due to lack of patronage (I think this applies to Brompton Road and City Road, say) and others were requisitioned during the war (Down Street); but were there any that perhaps should have stayed open? How about Lords station for example? And would reopening City Road station take pressure off the busy Angel station? What are your thoughts?
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Old June 19th, 2011, 01:18 PM   #4569
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I was having another look at your rail atlas today and was reminded of just how many tube stations have actually closed for good. Some I'm sure were due to lack of patronage (I think this applies to Brompton Road and City Road, say) and others were requisitioned during the war (Down Street); but were there any that perhaps should have stayed open? How about Lords station for example? And would reopening City Road station take pressure off the busy Angel station? What are your thoughts?
Lord's and Marlborough Road were effectively replaced by St John's Wood / Swiss Cottage (locations not identical, but close enough), so the current arrangement is superior as the Metropolitan Line acts as the express service and the Jubilee the local (even though the Met isn't the fastest between Baker St and Finchley Rd).

City Road would I guess pick up a reasonable number of passengers as it serves a very densely populated area, but it would require so much development it would be tantamount to building a new station (platforms would need lengthening, and I guess escalators would need to be sunk as lifts alone would not be fit for purpose).

York Road was mooted for re-opening due to the development of the adjacent King's Cross railway lands, and I think it's certainly the re-opening with the best case (the only one with any decent case, I think). However, the proposal was quietly dropped due to impact on Piccadilly Line running times between Caledonian Road and KXSP... I'm not convinced by this argument... It's a very long run currently and yes it would make that journey inevitably longer, but nothing that couldn't be compensated when the line goes ATO.

The fabric of the station is intact, but again escalators would need to be sunk in addition to the original lift shaft which is a big job.

No other closed LU stations have a cost-benefit to re-opening in my opinion.

I would re-open some NR stations given a magic wand though: Walworth Road, Camberwell, Old Kent Road, Junction Road (for Tufnell Park), Battersea (West London Line), St Quintin Park & Wormwood Scrubs.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #4570
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Cool! That's pretty much as I thought but I guess stations on the tube are often further apart than say Paris where there is a very dense network of lines in the centre in a remarkably small area. Maybe that reflects the more high-rise living there.

Obviously significant capacity improvements are underway all over the system, but even with Crossrail 1 and (we hope) 2 do you think there is a significant need for any other new lines crossing the centre of London itself?

How about some of the 'lost' proposals for lines along corridors not currently served by tube? I know at least one that gets oft mooted is the DLR to CharingX for example; a route that has been part of more than one tube scheme in the past. But how about entirely new lines?
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Old June 20th, 2011, 12:58 AM   #4571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I have no idea. I stepped off the front of a Met train on the Eastbound last Monday for my usual speedy exit to street level, only to be greeted by a hoarding and a horrible throng of people trying to get out of the one remaining exit halfway down the platform.

It seems very strange as that exit, along with the entire station, has only just been refurbished. The hoardings say 'Network Rail', so I can only assume it's to do with the new ticket hall on the side of King's Cross station... and access to it.

Hope it's short-lived... it's a pain in the arse!
Indeed. The hoardings were first blocking the eastern staircase of the St Pancras exit (I don't know if it was previously on the western staircase) and are now blocking the staircase to interchange with the deep lines. Been like that for over a week. It looked like merely re-tiling when I looked through a couple of times.
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Old June 20th, 2011, 11:26 PM   #4572
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http://londonreconnections.blogspot....t-ruislip.html

What do you make of this propsal Tubeman? I don't undertand why they don't create a new interchange station where the two lines cross instead... or move West Ruislip.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 05:17 PM   #4573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedArkady View Post
http://londonreconnections.blogspot....t-ruislip.html

What do you make of this propsal Tubeman? I don't undertand why they don't create a new interchange station where the two lines cross instead... or move West Ruislip.
One suggestion that came up in that discussion was extending the Central to Uxbridge via the old Uxbridge High St. branch. Interesting alternative from using the Depot chord, but would it be too round about a route I wonder...
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 06:34 PM   #4574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedArkady View Post
http://londonreconnections.blogspot....t-ruislip.html

What do you make of this propsal Tubeman? I don't undertand why they don't create a new interchange station where the two lines cross instead... or move West Ruislip.
Had to smile at the comment "We feel that compared to other metropolitan town centres in London, such as Kingston, Uxbridge could be better served by the tube"

I live in the Kingston area and Uxbridge already has two more tube lines than we do - so it already is better served.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 12:54 AM   #4575
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Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
Cool! That's pretty much as I thought but I guess stations on the tube are often further apart than say Paris where there is a very dense network of lines in the centre in a remarkably small area. Maybe that reflects the more high-rise living there.

Obviously significant capacity improvements are underway all over the system, but even with Crossrail 1 and (we hope) 2 do you think there is a significant need for any other new lines crossing the centre of London itself?

How about some of the 'lost' proposals for lines along corridors not currently served by tube? I know at least one that gets oft mooted is the DLR to CharingX for example; a route that has been part of more than one tube scheme in the past. But how about entirely new lines?
I think Crossrail1 / Thameslink will go a long way to relieving the Tube system, combined with ATO and therefore increased frequencies on the LU lines themselves. All I can see happening in the next century in terms of purely LU expansion are a couple of extensions to utilise underused capacity, e.g. Bakerloo southern extension and Northern Line Charing Cross branch extension from Kennington. I very much doubt there'll be any entirely new LU lines, I'm dubious about whether I'll see Crossrail2 in my lifetime either.

I'd expect a little DLR expansion, but probably not on the scale of the past 15 years.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 01:29 AM   #4576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedArkady View Post
http://londonreconnections.blogspot....t-ruislip.html

What do you make of this propsal Tubeman? I don't undertand why they don't create a new interchange station where the two lines cross instead... or move West Ruislip.
The four stations either side of the interchange are all in respective town centres / on main roads / served by buses etc... Assuming the interchange would replace at least two of these (I guess West Ruislip and Ruislip due to their proximity), I don't think there's a cost-benefit there as you'd trade in 2 well sited stations for one poorly sited one purely so that the residents of Hillingdon and Uxbridge can have yet another route into Central London. I certainly think that a Park Royal interchange delivers pretty much the same interchange options with much less mess, certainly any talk of diverting the Central Line onto the Uxbridge route is just daft.

If anything, I'd enhance the Chiltern service stopping at West Ruislip and divert the Central Line to terminate at Ickenham, with (if possible) an arrangement where arriving terminating trains have cross-platform interchange with Uxbridge-bound Met / Picc trains before diving under the Met / Picc west of Ickenham station to access reversing sidings, reversing back into a departing platform with cross-platform interchange with the London-bound Met / Picc. This would be the next best thing to Central trains running into Uxbridge itself, without having to complicate matters by actually doing it.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 01:41 AM   #4577
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One suggestion that came up in that discussion was extending the Central to Uxbridge via the old Uxbridge High St. branch. Interesting alternative from using the Depot chord, but would it be too round about a route I wonder...
Very roundabout route with potential traffic between West Ruislip and an inferior sited Uxbridge station of virtually nil... it's all Green Belt, and the entire abandoned Uxbridge High Street branch is flanked by flooded gravel pits along the Colne Valley so the only potential passengers are ducks... I just can't see the circuitous route into London from Uxbridge High Street being attractive to anyone.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 01:42 AM   #4578
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Had to smile at the comment "We feel that compared to other metropolitan town centres in London, such as Kingston, Uxbridge could be better served by the tube"

I live in the Kingston area and Uxbridge already has two more tube lines than we do - so it already is better served.
The ignorance of our local government officials can be frightening...
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Old June 24th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #4579
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Quote:
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If anything, I'd enhance the Chiltern service stopping at West Ruislip and divert the Central Line to terminate at Ickenham, with (if possible) an arrangement where arriving terminating trains have cross-platform interchange with Uxbridge-bound Met / Picc trains before diving under the Met / Picc west of Ickenham station to access reversing sidings, reversing back into a departing platform with cross-platform interchange with the London-bound Met / Picc. This would be the next best thing to Central trains running into Uxbridge itself, without having to complicate matters by actually doing it.
Wouldn't it be better to terminate Metropolitan line at Ickenhamn and have Picadilly and Central line terminate at Uxbridge? It would reduce the number of platforms shared by SSL and tube stock and thus reduce the height difference problem.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 05:17 PM   #4580
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@ MiaM:
but then you have the Piccadilly journey from Uxbridge to central London share tracks with three other lines, rather than 2.
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