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Old July 5th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #4601
1956
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Adding to Tubeman's Fantasy London Overground

Tubeman (and other forum contributors) my contribution to extending London Overground is as follows (please feel free to highlight anything not possible - let's assume finance is available! A London Overground service starting from the terminating platform at Gordon Hill stopping at Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park, new platforms at Drayton Park if space available (for Arsenal Emirates). The Canonbury tunnel to be deepened and widened to take double track enabling freight trains to pass each other in the tunnel and dual overhead wires to be installed 9assuming ok to deepen given channel tunnel raillink below). The new service to leave Drayton Park to go through the Canonbury tunnel, stopping at Canonbury and Dalston Kingsland (Dalston Kingsland could be missed if it helps squeeze train paths into crowded NLL) . Graham Road curve to be doubled and used by the new service which would stop at London Fields, Cambridge Heath, Bethnal Green (these 3 stations could be missed if train paths not possible or no space for platfroms) and terminate at Liverpool Street (once capacity freed up at Liverpool Street following completion of current London rail enhancements already underway). Route between Finsbury Park and Liverpool street to be engineered to take extra trains if the route between Finsbury Park and Highgate via Crouch Hill was ever to be re-opened by LO (and if majority wanted this given popularity of the Parkland Walk). Comments?
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Old July 5th, 2011, 04:20 PM   #4602
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RedArkady - work has begun on the Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction (via South London Line) extension - including the new piece of railway through Bridgehouse Meadows.
Excellent. Any one around that part of the world able to take pictures?
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Old July 5th, 2011, 08:09 PM   #4603
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Fascinating stuff, thanks. I didn't know about the Dudding Hill Loop.

Reopening Junction Road strikes me as very sensible. Perhaps as the Overground orbital concept settles into the public conciousness campaigns to reopen old stations and create new ones will get off the ground, especially at potential interchanges.
Yes the Dudding Hill Loop is an interesting line... one of the last places left in London with semaphore signalling. It hasn't carried regular passenger trains for over a century (but was always an abject failure in this regard anyway).

I think re-opening Junction Road / Tufnell Park is probably the biggest single cost / benefit on the LOROL network. They can just chuck up cheap prefab 2-car platforms, put an Oyster validator by both, ramps up to Junction Road, and it's done. It'd make the western end of the GOBLIN so much more useful by giving stations with huge commuter potential like Crouch Hill a decent prospect of an onward journey into London... as it is, the line ending at Gospel Oak is pretty pointless.

Until the early 1980's the GOBLIN service ran into Kentish Town which was far more useful, but this was swept away due to the Midland main line electrification and re-establishment of regular trains off the Midland onto the Widened Lines to Moorgate.

One other idea of mine is to re-establish the Mortimer Street Curve (between Kentish Town and GOBLIN) and run the western half of GOBLIN as a Thameslink branch (electrified 25Kv OHLE), by re-laying the Tottenham North curve (South Tottenham to Tottenham Hale), trains could continue up the Lea Valley Line to Stansted Airport... This means that Thameslink would serve Stansted, Luton, and Gatwick while Crossrail serves Heathrow and London City... connecting all 5 main international airports with cross-London heavy rail. Intermediate stations at Upper Holloway, Crouch Hill, Harringay Green Lanes, and South Tottenham would gain hugely improved services, tapping into I think large potential in that area of London.

Where this leaves the eastern, and I guess still unelectrified, portion of GOBLIN I don't know... maybe using the Seven Sisters curve to run up to terminate at Enfield Town (i.e. Enfield Town to Barking service)?

Last edited by Tubeman; July 5th, 2011 at 08:15 PM.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #4604
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Excellent. Any one around that part of the world able to take pictures?
I've just moved to Peckham... I'll see if I can get close! I was going to go out with the camera Saturday to capture the magnificent Heygate estate before it's demolished, might pop over towards Surrey canal Road.

The 'flying' junction south of Surrey Quays is already in situ, it can be seen on Google maps.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 08:29 PM   #4605
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@Tubeman: Any word on the prospect of the Bakerloo extension to Watford and the impact on the parallel Overground service?
Long term, it'll happen I'm sure... coinciding with the Bakerloo upgrade (whenever that is)... I'd certainly not expect it before 2020.

The issue currently is Bakerloo rolling stock... there's barely enough to provide the current service let alone push north to Watford Junction to supplant the LOROL service. The logic is that the lot comes with the upgrade: new trains, new ATO signalling, the extension up to Watford Junction, and maybe even a southern extension too (Hayes in Kent via Lewisham has been long mooted).

There was talk about cascading withdrawn 1967 stock to the Bakerloo, but it would cost as much to retro-fit the ATO 1967s as manual 1972 MkIIs as it would for new trains, so it was shelved.

Something needs to be done at Elephant & Castle for the upgrade (only 2 platforms), and the best remedy is simply to extend to somewhere with more reversing capacity or to a terminal loop. Selfishly, I hope it happens, as Peckham is I reckon a dead cert calling-point for any Bakerloo southern extension.

The only slight headache of Bakerloo taking over the DC lines to Watford Junction is what to do with the final stretch into Euston... the extra capacity on the approach to and within Euston itself would be very much in demand for HS2, but that leaves Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead stations without trains. They're both adjacent to Tube stations (Kilburn Park and Swiss Cottage) so no huge loss, but one work-around is a LOROL service terminating at Queen's Park (see my diagrams on the previous page).
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Old July 5th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #4606
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Tubeman (and other forum contributors) my contribution to extending London Overground is as follows (please feel free to highlight anything not possible - let's assume finance is available! A London Overground service starting from the terminating platform at Gordon Hill stopping at Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park, new platforms at Drayton Park if space available (for Arsenal Emirates). The Canonbury tunnel to be deepened and widened to take double track enabling freight trains to pass each other in the tunnel and dual overhead wires to be installed 9assuming ok to deepen given channel tunnel raillink below). The new service to leave Drayton Park to go through the Canonbury tunnel, stopping at Canonbury and Dalston Kingsland (Dalston Kingsland could be missed if it helps squeeze train paths into crowded NLL) . Graham Road curve to be doubled and used by the new service which would stop at London Fields, Cambridge Heath, Bethnal Green (these 3 stations could be missed if train paths not possible or no space for platfroms) and terminate at Liverpool Street (once capacity freed up at Liverpool Street following completion of current London rail enhancements already underway). Route between Finsbury Park and Liverpool street to be engineered to take extra trains if the route between Finsbury Park and Highgate via Crouch Hill was ever to be re-opened by LO (and if majority wanted this given popularity of the Parkland Walk). Comments?
Interesting, but not giving a huge amount of added value... effectively just giving Hertford Loop customers another 'City' option, when they already have Moorgate.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 12:30 PM   #4607
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Long term, it'll happen I'm sure... coinciding with the Bakerloo upgrade (whenever that is)... I'd certainly not expect it before 2020.

<snip>

The only slight headache of Bakerloo taking over the DC lines to Watford Junction is what to do with the final stretch into Euston... the extra capacity on the approach to and within Euston itself would be very much in demand for HS2, but that leaves Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead stations without trains. They're both adjacent to Tube stations (Kilburn Park and Swiss Cottage) so no huge loss, but one work-around is a LOROL service terminating at Queen's Park (see my diagrams on the previous page).
Why terminate that proposed service at Queen’s Park rather than Willesden Junction?
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Old July 6th, 2011, 03:19 PM   #4608
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Tubeman - could ELL trains from Crystal Palace and West Croydon be extended beyond Highbury & Islington to Queens Park using the freight only link just west of Camden Road?
As ELL is 3rd rail then no need to lower overhead electrical connectors to go into the tunnel after Camden Road. Also minimises use of the busy North London Line thus easing planning of train paths. Also retains Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead (also re-open Primrose Hill). No alterations at Dalston Junction required. I guess reinstatement of disused bridges and alignments at Camden Road would be necessary (and perhaps better use of tracks and platfroms at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury. Also bakerloo trains would have to terminate at Stonebridge or Watford to free up Queens park for London Overground trains. I think the Dalston Junction to Highbury ELL tracks have been engineered for a max of 12 tph (they currently handle 8). Is this proposal feasible or a non starter?
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Old July 6th, 2011, 03:29 PM   #4609
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@CairnsTony: I suspect that splitting up the Overground routes on the tube map would be difficult as the routes overlap so much. There might be room for doing so on the ‘Overgound only’ map shown inside the trains though. When they take over the South London Line they will need to completely overhaul the design.
With three bundled lines already on maps for the northern part of the Circle I think it could be doable with clever design. After all, bundled lines are commonplace on many metropolitan rail maps around the world often with several different services running alongside each other using different colours.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #4610
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...as we discussed the first time around in the LO thread, I'd prefer to see the ELL run up to Watford Junction rather than the Bakerloo, but I agree with a lot of what you've got there with those ideas Tubeman.

...one thing that I'd love to get your thoughts on (preferably, with an updated map ) is the mooted idea of LO taking over the outer SLL services and merging them with the WLL services (presumably subsuming Southern's Crystal Palace services from London Bridge)....leaving the SLL services as those using platform 2 (and 1...one day) at Clapham Junction, and the WLL using platforms 16 & 17.

...and thinking about it...how would you feel about the West Croydon services running to Wimbledon via Sutton or taking Tramlink back (the super outer SLL ) ? ...and perhaps back up to Clapham Junction via East Putney?
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Old July 6th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #4611
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With three bundled lines already on maps for the northern part of the Circle I think it could be doable with clever design. After all, bundled lines are commonplace on many metropolitan rail maps around the world often with several different services running alongside each other using different colours.
Fair point, and it would looks less odd than the Hi&I ELL extension. It'd be cool to see some mock-up designs. Perhaps they could have the same colour but different patterns as with Tubeman's examples.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:48 PM   #4612
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Why terminate that proposed service at Queen’s Park rather than Willesden Junction?
To completely segregate the Bakerloo Line from Network Rail.

This has several benefits:

- Allow consistent LUL rules & regs on the whole line (using 2 different sets of procedures is confusing and has hazards)

- Allowing resignalling of Queen's Park to Watford Junction, namely to a modern ATO system like TBTC

- Removing height compromise at platforms served by Tube and NR stock (i.e. they can all be lowered to Tube height)

...Although admittedly for the sake of the LOROL network, it would be better to continue to Willesden Junction for interchange possibilities.

I'd also re-arrange Queen's Park so the Bakerloo rises either side of the LOROL tracks and runs through the current NR platforms 1 and 4, with the LOROL trains reversing via the current Bakerloo platforms 2 & 3, which would be linked on the level at the north end (so the same layout at the current Dalston Junction, basically), this would allow easier interchange between Bakerloo and LOROL trains.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #4613
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Tubeman - could ELL trains from Crystal Palace and West Croydon be extended beyond Highbury & Islington to Queens Park using the freight only link just west of Camden Road?
As ELL is 3rd rail then no need to lower overhead electrical connectors to go into the tunnel after Camden Road. Also minimises use of the busy North London Line thus easing planning of train paths. Also retains Kilburn High Road and South Hampstead (also re-open Primrose Hill). No alterations at Dalston Junction required. I guess reinstatement of disused bridges and alignments at Camden Road would be necessary (and perhaps better use of tracks and platfroms at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury. Also bakerloo trains would have to terminate at Stonebridge or Watford to free up Queens park for London Overground trains. I think the Dalston Junction to Highbury ELL tracks have been engineered for a max of 12 tph (they currently handle 8). Is this proposal feasible or a non starter?
Yes, absolutely

As I've discussed on another thread, the only slightly silly thing about this is that the DC conductor rail that was only fairly recently removed in favour of 25Kv OHLE would need to be reinstated, but no huge drama I guess.

As mr_jrt points out, the LOROL could then continue over the Watford DC lines. The drawback is that realistically you'd still need Bakerloo and LOROL trains sharing, as the arrangement at Queen's Park is simply not enough to reverse an intensive Tube service. Bearing this in mind, I still favour Bakerloo to Watford, also because when the Croxley Link is finally built, Metropolitan trains will be sharing the final stretch from Watford High Street to Watford Junction, so to achieve segregation (desirable for the aforementioned reasons), it would be necessary for the DC lines to transfer to LUL.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 12:02 AM   #4614
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...as we discussed the first time around in the LO thread, I'd prefer to see the ELL run up to Watford Junction rather than the Bakerloo, but I agree with a lot of what you've got there with those ideas Tubeman.

...one thing that I'd love to get your thoughts on (preferably, with an updated map ) is the mooted idea of LO taking over the outer SLL services and merging them with the WLL services (presumably subsuming Southern's Crystal Palace services from London Bridge)....leaving the SLL services as those using platform 2 (and 1...one day) at Clapham Junction, and the WLL using platforms 16 & 17.

...and thinking about it...how would you feel about the West Croydon services running to Wimbledon via Sutton or taking Tramlink back (the super outer SLL ) ? ...and perhaps back up to Clapham Junction via East Putney?
The possibilities are endless.

What I'd love to see in the future is all suburban NR and LUL's SSR network combined into a single integrated railway under the London Rail banner, there would be an almost endless range of possible services across central London by attaching the SSR system fully back onto the mainline system.

SSR belongs with the mainline, not with the Tubes... it's just quirks of history that have left us with the bizarre combination of surface and tube sized railways on LUL.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 07:23 AM   #4615
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I recently read somewhere that between 2007 and 2009 that LUL changed some of its Digital Voice Announcers to more current phrasing like replacing "Alight Here" with exit here, etc. Is there a comprehensive list of all the archaic phrasing that was modernized?
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Old July 8th, 2011, 12:46 AM   #4616
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Here's a slight variation on that theme, without the 'line 1' running via Kew Bridge (which I suspect might cause some issues between Kew Bridge and Clapham Junction).
The London Reconections blog has some stuff about the Windsor Lines.

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[IMG]http://i53.************/2yjoqok.jpg[/IMG]
Is a full circle service really the best way to use a circle-formed infrastructure? I'm thinking about running trains that comes frome some suburb, runs about a half circle on the circular infrastructure, and then continues outward to another suburb.

I'm thinking about services like Clapham Junction - Surrey Quays - Seven Sisters, West Croydon - Dalston Junction - Queens Park - Watford e.t.c. rathern than a full circle service.

I admit that I haven't given much thought about what journes that already can be done using other rail services and what would be new connections.

Another thing: wouldn't it be rather good if it were possible to dispose the West Croydon station and have all trains using East Croydon? (I'd also move the bus station at West Croydon to somewhere around East Croydon so any interchange wouldn't get worse).
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Old July 9th, 2011, 07:49 AM   #4617
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I recently read somewhere that between 2007 and 2009 that LUL changed some of its Digital Voice Announcers to more current phrasing like replacing "Alight Here" with exit here, etc. Is there a comprehensive list of all the archaic phrasing that was modernized?
Not that I'm aware of, and I don't recall any internal announcement about a drive to update terminology at the time... sounds like the remit of Strategy & Service Delivery (S&SD) or whatever they're called this week, in the name of 'accessibility'.

And I'm sure that 'alight here' is still very much in use on some DVAs, but the software on them is difficult to get changed as I've discovered in the past.
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Old July 9th, 2011, 08:03 AM   #4618
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Is a full circle service really the best way to use a circle-formed infrastructure?
Not really... no! It doesn't help reliability as there is less opportunity for service recovery, hence why the LU Circle Line became the 'Teacup'. With hindsight I don't think I'd favour the Clapham Jcn - Clapham Jcn service on my map. In reality no-one's going to want to go from one side of London to the other on this Orbital line, unless they're desperate to save money and avoid zone 1. It's also no good if you want to travel (for example) from Clapham High Street to Shepherd's Bush, as you'll always need to change.

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I'm thinking about running trains that comes frome some suburb, runs about a half circle on the circular infrastructure, and then continues outward to another suburb.
Yes this is preferable, pretty much how Melbourne's system works (and no doubt others).

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I'm thinking about services like Clapham Junction - Surrey Quays - Seven Sisters, West Croydon - Dalston Junction - Queens Park - Watford e.t.c. rathern than a full circle service.
Yes, sound ideas for overlapping services... there are so many potential routes using the LOROL infrastructure it's mind-boggling... I guess someone should analyse the movement of people in London (i.e. their door-to-door journeys) to see which routes would give the most cost-benefit, while keeping it simple.

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Another thing: wouldn't it be rather good if it were possible to dispose the West Croydon station and have all trains using East Croydon? (I'd also move the bus station at West Croydon to somewhere around East Croydon so any interchange wouldn't get worse).
West Croydon is necessary to provide a Croydon station on the line towards Sutton... and I guess was chosen over East Croydon as a terminus due to operating constraints at East Croydon (much busier line and no real reversing facilities). West Croydon used to be the terminus of the Wimbledon trains, and so had the reversing capacity already. I agree that East Croydon is the better placed station for Croydon town centre however.
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Old July 9th, 2011, 09:52 PM   #4619
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Talking about interchange stations... thee's a good argument for showing Kilburn and Brondesbury as an interchange on the tube map. They're a comparible distance apart to Clapham High Street and Clapham North, which are shown as an interchange on prospective maps including from TFL: http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrenl...n/photostream/
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Old July 10th, 2011, 05:02 AM   #4620
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I disagree. The interchange between LOROL and the Jubilee at West Hampstead is much quicker, so why would you want to encourage passengers to change at Kilburn/Brondesbury? I live in this area so I know what i'm talking about.
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