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Old July 18th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #4641
mr_jrt
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Great idea, have been thinking about that for years, why did they not propose it in the new Thameslink program?

However, Thameslink will max out at 24tph (and they may not even achieve that with the pinchpoint flat junction south of Blackfriars). If 10 of those go to the Great Northern mainline, that leaves only 14 for the Midland route... so not enough paths. Shame
..almost as if each N-S mainline could do with it's own Thameslink tunnel interchanging with Crossrail stations That way you'd be able to operate the full 24tph up the MML. I'd imagine the ECML would interchange at Liverpool St/Moorgate, the WAML at Stratford (and the WCML and Chiltern lines at TCR and Bond St respectively).
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Old July 19th, 2011, 02:53 PM   #4642
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Have you ever heard of a bricked up train below Crystal Park? I found this when i googled London Underground:

Location: SE19 (Greater London) - Area below Crystal Palace Park
Type: Legend
Date / Time: Unknown
Further Comments: A local legend states that there is a train bricked up under the park, complete with dead passengers and crew - sometimes the hands of the dead reach up from the ground and try to grab the living..!


The "Further Comments" sounds impossible, i know, but what about the train part?
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #4643
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Have you ever heard of a bricked up train below Crystal Park? I found this when i googled London Underground:

Location: SE19 (Greater London) - Area below Crystal Palace Park
Type: Legend
Date / Time: Unknown
Further Comments: A local legend states that there is a train bricked up under the park, complete with dead passengers and crew - sometimes the hands of the dead reach up from the ground and try to grab the living..!


The "Further Comments" sounds impossible, i know, but what about the train part?
It's a local urban myth about the abandoned tunnel just north of the closed Crystal Palace High Level station (Paxton Tunnel) whose bricked up portal is still in situ. Not true, which is just as well for the supposed passengers I guess!
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Old July 20th, 2011, 12:22 AM   #4644
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It's a local urban myth about the abandoned tunnel just north of the closed Crystal Palace High Level station (Paxton Tunnel) whose bricked up portal is still in situ. Not true, which is just as well for the supposed passengers I guess!
I see. So the tunnel part is true, but the rest is made up? That is indeed good for the supposed passengers.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 12:11 AM   #4645
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I guess the "lost train in an abandoned tunnel" fantasy is quite alluring... but in reality it's hardly likely to have happened!
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Old July 21st, 2011, 02:06 PM   #4646
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Just like in the Atlantic Avenue tunnel in New York? They say there's a steam engine behind a brick wall but there's no conclusive evidence.
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Old July 23rd, 2011, 03:24 PM   #4647
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Originally Posted by London Underground View Post
Have you ever heard of a bricked up train below Crystal Park? I found this when i googled London Underground:

Location: SE19 (Greater London) - Area below Crystal Palace Park
Type: Legend
Date / Time: Unknown
Further Comments: A local legend states that there is a train bricked up under the park, complete with dead passengers and crew - sometimes the hands of the dead reach up from the ground and try to grab the living..!


The "Further Comments" sounds impossible, i know, but what about the train part?
I've never heard of the supernatural stuff but I have heard of this legend - although the idea of forgotten trains in tunnels seems to be some enduring urban myth - there is a tale of steam locomotives kept in tunnels to be used in the event of a nuclear war. From what I've read though, the Atlantic Avenue tunnel legend may have some more credence although it might just be a ploy by the tunnel's enthusiasts to retain interest in the discovery.

I have been to the site of the old Crystal Palace High Level Station. The entrance to the tunnel is clearly visible and bricked up and a model steam locomotive has been displayed in front of this entrance. There is also a very ornate underground passageway under the main road separating the station from the Crystal Palace site - although it is not open to the public.

The branch line, which served the old station was built when the area was mostly rural and the French Impressionist Painter, Camille Pissarro, who lived in the area to escape service in the Franco-Prussian War painted Lordship Lane Station which would have been close to were the South Circular Road is now.

Coming back to this idea of trains lost in forgotten tunnels reminds me that one example of this happening for real was the Beech subway in Manhattan, which was a very short length of pneumatic underground line built well in advance of the New York Subway. When the old tunnel was discovered, the rotten remains of the single rail car was found in-situ - I guess it wouldn't have been much use anywhere else.

That might explain the Crystal Palace legend for there was a pneumatic railway tunnel built across the park, which I think joined the High Level and Low Level stations. Perhaps, when that was abandoned, they left the rail vehicle still in place and that memory has been transferred to the high level station tunnel, which closed many years later.
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Old July 23rd, 2011, 04:19 PM   #4648
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I've never heard of the supernatural stuff but I have heard of this legend - although the idea of forgotten trains in tunnels seems to be some enduring urban myth - there is a tale of steam locomotives kept in tunnels to be used in the event of a nuclear war. From what I've read though, the Atlantic Avenue tunnel legend may have some more credence although it might just be a ploy by the tunnel's enthusiasts to retain interest in the discovery.

I have been to the site of the old Crystal Palace High Level Station. The entrance to the tunnel is clearly visible and bricked up and a model steam locomotive has been displayed in front of this entrance. There is also a very ornate underground passageway under the main road separating the station from the Crystal Palace site - although it is not open to the public.

The branch line, which served the old station was built when the area was mostly rural and the French Impressionist Painter, Camille Pissarro, who lived in the area to escape service in the Franco-Prussian War painted Lordship Lane Station which would have been close to were the South Circular Road is now.

Coming back to this idea of trains lost in forgotten tunnels reminds me that one example of this happening for real was the Beech subway in Manhattan, which was a very short length of pneumatic underground line built well in advance of the New York Subway. When the old tunnel was discovered, the rotten remains of the single rail car was found in-situ - I guess it wouldn't have been much use anywhere else.

That might explain the Crystal Palace legend for there was a pneumatic railway tunnel built across the park, which I think joined the High Level and Low Level stations. Perhaps, when that was abandoned, they left the rail vehicle still in place and that memory has been transferred to the high level station tunnel, which closed many years later.

Two things:
1. Here in Sweden we had, up untill last year, steam engines stored all around the country in case of war.

2. I allways thought that the pneumatic subway was made up for the movie Ghostbusters 2. Thanks for the info.
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Old July 24th, 2011, 01:02 AM   #4649
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Two things:
1. Here in Sweden we had, up untill last year, steam engines stored all around the country in case of war.

2. I allways thought that the pneumatic subway was made up for the movie Ghostbusters 2. Thanks for the info.
Pneumatic railways were experimented with quite seriously in the mid 19th century, before they were deemed more trouble than they were worth compared to conventional steam. The West London Line was initially pneumatic for an experimental stretch near Wormwood Scrubs, before subsequently being rebuilt as a conventional railway. There was also a pneumatic railway in the Norwood area roughly following the subsequent London & Croydon Railway route.

Another propulsion method which was installed only to lose out to conventional steam was rope haulage, which was the London & Blackwall's original propulsion. Trains left Minories terminus (just east of present day Fenchurch Street) and a carriage was 'slipped' or released from the train at each station, so in effect the train got shorter and shorter each station until just one carriage was left at Blackwall. On the return journey slipped carriages were picked up, one by one. The advantage was it provided a non-stop journey to every destination, but the big disadvantage was that a journey between two intermediate stations was impossible.

There was also originally a range of gauges, from the Great Western Railway's whopping 7 foot broad gauge into Paddington (and also along the West London Railway into Victoria for a while, as well as the original Metropolitan Railway), to the more modest 5 foot gauge of the Eastern Counties Railway into Bishopsgate (later relocated to Liverpool Street), the now universal 4 foot 8 1/2 inch standard gauge, as well as narrow gauge on several industrial railway systems like in Beckton gasworks and Hampton waterworks.
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Old July 24th, 2011, 11:46 PM   #4650
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There were two types of pneumatic railway - the underground system where trains were designed to act as bullets in guns and be propelled by air pressure behind and the overground type where the train was pulled by a piston in an iron pipe set between the rails.
The latter system was adopted for the lines south of Exeter in south west England by the famous engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel and was probably the most extensive use of pneumatic propulsion in Britain. The problem was that the piston that pulled the train needed a long slot in the top of the pipe for its connecting rod to the train, which needed to be sealed to preserve air pressure. This proved impractical and Brunel ended up replacing the pneumatic system with conventional steam haulage, at great cost to his client.

Slip coaches were used on conventional railways until the 1960s and normally consisted of the last coach of the train, which was uncoupled by the guard on the approach to a station and then braked to a halt whilst the main train continued on at line speed. A local train would then collect the slip coaches and transport them to a major station where they would be coupled to an express. Quite labour intensive and probably not meeting modern health and safety requirements.
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Old August 1st, 2011, 11:28 PM   #4651
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the underground system where trains were designed to act as bullets in guns and be propelled by air pressure behind
How the hell was this supposed to work? I'm imagining a piston sort of arrangement, where the train is the piston sliding along a smooth tunnel with some kind of compressor unit pumping the air in behind it.

But what happens at stations? The train pops out followed by an enormous increase in air pressure and an almighty wind! And how do they send the train off down the next bit of tunnel?

Crazy people, these victorians!

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Old August 3rd, 2011, 01:30 AM   #4652
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How the hell was this supposed to work? I'm imagining a piston sort of arrangement, where the train is the piston sliding along a smooth tunnel with some kind of compressor unit pumping the air in behind it.

But what happens at stations? The train pops out followed by an enormous increase in air pressure and an almighty wind! And how do they send the train off down the next bit of tunnel?

Crazy people, these victorians!

Derek
Here's an example... fascinating stuff. This example ran in a 600 yard tunnel under Crystal Palace park... a single coach running through a circular tunnel, with bristles extending from the coach out to the tunnel lining and a steam engine powering a huge fan which either blew or sucked the carriage through the tunnel depending on the direction. As crazy as this sounds, it references 600 yards in just 50 seconds which is a pretty respectable 47kmh give or take.

"The tube extends from the Sydenham entrance to the armory near Penge-gate - a distance of about a quarter of a mile, and it is, in fact, a simple brick tunnel, nine feet high and eight feet wide - a size that renders it capable of containing an ordinary Great Western Railway carriage. That actually working in the tube is handsome and commodious. The piston is rendered partially airtight by the use of a fringe of bristles extending nearly to the brickwork of the tunnel and its floor. A fan 20 feet in diameter is employed to exhaust or to force in air, and perhaps it is imppossible to devise any other expedient so well calculated to answer the required purpose. It must be remembered that either a plenum or a vacuum equivalent to 5 of an inch of mercury is quite sufficient to propel even an heavy train at a high speed on a moderately level line. In the present instyance, the motive power is supplied by an old locomotive borrowed from one of the railway companies, which is temporarily mounted on brickwork. The tires have been removed from the driving wheels, and these last put the fan in motion by straps.

The line, we have said, is a quarter of a mile long; a very small portion of it, if any, is level, but it has in it a gradient of one in fifteen, an incline which no engineer would construct on an ordinary railway; and as it is not a level line, so it is not a straight one; for it has curves of only eight chain radius, which are shorter than those usually found in existing railways. The entire distance, 600 yards, is traversed in about 50 seconds, with an atmospheric pressure of but 2,5 ounces. The motion is of course easy and pleasant, and the ventilation ample, without being in any way excessive. All the mechanical arrangements are so simple and must be so obviou, we imagine, that it is needless to dwell on them. We feel tolerably certain that the day is not very distant when metropolitan railway traffic can be conducted on this principle with so much success, as far as popular liking goes, that the locomotive will be unknown on underground lines."


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Old August 16th, 2011, 01:35 AM   #4653
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So I've recently moved to another area in London, and as usual, I start wondering what could be done to improve things (it's ridiculous). So I know there have been talks about having the Northern Line split into the Northern and the City lines, but I think that I read the cost of the Camden station works would outweigh the benefits. Would you agree? Do you think that another line is needed to pass through Camden? The fact it closes for entry on Sundays is inconvenient to say the least!

Secondly, with all the works going on in the Kings Cross wasteland, is it plausible to have York Road reopen? I passed it on the bus and thought that although it probably wouldn't need to be used now, in the future it may be useful, especially since it's so far away from any other station.

Would love to hear your thoughts, and the thoughts of others, as always.
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Old August 16th, 2011, 09:45 AM   #4654
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There's a discussion on York Rd on the District Dave board HERE. The York Rd Wikipedia page has a link to a 2005 business case analysis, which gave a categoric thumbs down to reopening. Also summarised in this LURS magazine article.

Personally I think a better long-term option is a new station further north to connect with a reopened Maiden Lane station on the North London Line. At some point they will invest seriously in the NLL and there will be a much more frequent metro service, so a Piccadilly interchange will be useful.

On Camden, the problem is creating enough circulation space underground for interchange. To provide this requires substantial redevelopment, and the proposed plans required demolition of some iconic landmarks such as the Electric Ballroom, and unsurprisingly the locals kicked up a stink. I don't know of the latest, but I saw a discussion somewhere on the net (that I now cannot find) about other options to relieve pressure on Camden Town, such as:
  • reopening South Kentish Town station on the Highgate branch
  • a new station at Chalk Farm on the NLL, by the supermarket carpark, just east of the old Primrose Hill station ― this is better located for Camden Markets, and perhaps could provide interchange with the Edgware branch station?

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Old August 17th, 2011, 03:36 PM   #4655
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Haha South Kentish Town is an incredibly useless station that would never be reopened. I think a lot of the congestion would actually go away if people didn't hang around at the bottom of the escalators waiting to figure out what platform will have the next train to their destination.
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Old August 17th, 2011, 05:24 PM   #4656
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1. Here in Sweden we had, up untill last year, steam engines stored all around the country in case of war.
That's interesting. How are they being used now?
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Old August 18th, 2011, 01:30 AM   #4657
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That's interesting. How are they being used now?
Some were scrapped and some ended up in museums.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 01:40 AM   #4658
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Haha South Kentish Town is an incredibly useless station that would never be reopened. I think a lot of the congestion would actually go away if people didn't hang around at the bottom of the escalators waiting to figure out what platform will have the next train to their destination.
Exactly, and once the Northern Line is split, there'll be no debate about which platform the next Bank / Charing Cross train will depart from and consequent baffled passengers / people sprinting.

One side will be Edgware / Charing Cross, the other High Barnet / Bank. I reckon Camden can cope with the interchanges.
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Old August 18th, 2011, 01:46 AM   #4659
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So I've recently moved to another area in London, and as usual, I start wondering what could be done to improve things (it's ridiculous). So I know there have been talks about having the Northern Line split into the Northern and the City lines, but I think that I read the cost of the Camden station works would outweigh the benefits. Would you agree? Do you think that another line is needed to pass through Camden? The fact it closes for entry on Sundays is inconvenient to say the least!

Secondly, with all the works going on in the Kings Cross wasteland, is it plausible to have York Road reopen? I passed it on the bus and thought that although it probably wouldn't need to be used now, in the future it may be useful, especially since it's so far away from any other station.

Would love to hear your thoughts, and the thoughts of others, as always.
I'm not that convinced by the York Road counter-arguments... it's a very long run from Cally Road to KX and the very dense KX Railway lands development will surely render the station pretty well-used. I've said it before, but probably the only closed LU station with a good shout for re-opening.
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Old August 19th, 2011, 01:32 AM   #4660
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I'm not that convinced by the York Road counter-arguments... it's a very long run from Cally Road to KX and the very dense KX Railway lands development will surely render the station pretty well-used. I've said it before, but probably the only closed LU station with a good shout for re-opening.
Which makes it all the more ridiculous the original Kings Cross Lands proposal was turned down for lack of transport.
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