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Old June 9th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #4981
Rational Plan
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Originally Posted by ill tonkso View Post
Theres a junction stub at North Greenwich? I noticed it was 3 platforms (with the associated junctions) but I always assumed that was for the Millenium Dome traffic and to cope with the extra traffic after gigs. Never noticed it at South Kensington either.
I did an essay on this at University, and I managed to get a copy of the East London Rail Study (they made me give in my research materials). I also had some good LT documents on the future of the network from the early 90's thanks to an incredible helpful civil servant at the old Dft and someone at the Jubilee line project. It was just really lucky plugging away at department switchboards at the time.

Anyway, at the time of building the Jubilee line they had narrowed it down to two options for Eastwards of North Greenwich, one was towards the Royal Docks and either Woolwich or Plumstead before ending in Thamesmead, the other was towards Stratford. The other report was quite clear that Stratford would have higher passenger numbers and be cheaper. So the built North Greenwich with the ability to provide a separate branch that could be built later as development occurred and drove up potential demand.

The problem was that demand from stratford was much higher than anticipated and the line has been swamped from both directions. Then the DLR was extended to a much greater extent in the Royal docks than expected (I can remember for a 'cheap' tram to built along the south docks to link with the DLR).

Now of course crossrail through docklands is that second branch of the Jubilee, it's just Thamesmead is never getting a line.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 10:53 AM   #4982
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Originally Posted by ill tonkso View Post
Theres a junction stub at North Greenwich? I noticed it was 3 platforms (with the associated junctions) but I always assumed that was for the Millenium Dome traffic and to cope with the extra traffic after gigs. Never noticed it at South Kensington either.
Yes, it's very clear from the driver's cab, but not so obvious as a passenger

There are dead-end stubs of tunnel and the cavern east of the platforms is laid out for junctions that never happened.

Middle platform 2 would have been the westbound ex-Royal Docks by the look of it, so there'd have been 2 westbounds and 1 eastbound. Logic being, if two westbounds turn up at the same time, the one that has to wait for the other does so in a platform rather than in the tunnel.

This is how Baker St Bakerloo was set up before the Jubilee Line, with a single northbound but two southbounds (one ex-Stanmore, one ex-Watford Junction).

Of course for reasons explained by rational plan, it won't happen now
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Old June 9th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #4983
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Tubeman, ill tonkso
Is there or was there any line not very successful in London in passengers per day?
Not really... the only two lines with any real spare capacity are the Bakerloo and Met... but both have sections at capacity.

That's only really a symptom of where the lines have their southern termini in Central London (Elephant & Castle and Aldgate), they steadily shed passengers on the southbound whereas other lines are shedding and picking up passengers as they pass through central London, as they 'come out the other side' and serve suburbs beyond the centre.

They can't be deemed 'unsuccessful' though... I use both for my daily commute (Elephant & Castle to Wembley Park). I always get a seat at E&C in the morning because it's the terminus, but it's always packed after Waterloo northbound. Coming home, it's always very busy when I get on at Baker Street but due to a lot of interchange traffic at Oxford Circus, I only have to stand for 2 stops... but then it's busy to Waterloo. I always travel against the commuter flow on the Metropolitan Line so always get a seat in the morning, but even then it can be standing room only when I board a southbound train at Wembley in the evening peak. The Met starts shedding passengers at Baker Street, and after Liverpool Street for the last stop to Aldgate, the trains are usually almost empty.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #4984
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Would crossrail perhaps be able to take over passengers that use the Jubilee line today, thus enabling the junction at North Greenwich to happend sometime? (Seems not likely)

================

Would a reinstated junction at Liverpool Street to diverge Aldgate termintaing Metropolitan trains so they instead are connected to some slow commuter line from Liverpool Street?

If some kind of "Crossrail 42" would link Baker Street / Marylebone to one of todays southern terminus would ever be buildt thus diverging Metropolitan services southwards then a "Liverpool Street Metropolitan-Suburban curve" could instead take over Hammersmith and/or Wimbledon trains, so it would not be a wasted investment.

That would perhaps leave Liverpool Street - Aldgate East with little or no traffic, but would that be an issue? (In a future scenario with several crossrails build there would probably be some kind of link from for example Canon Street to Moorgate or Liverpool Street which could probably replace Liverpool Street - Aldgate East).
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Old June 9th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #4985
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To be honest, if you look at the 2031 congestion map kicking around, then, while there's standees in both direction, Stratford - North Greenwich is about average congestion for a line in zone 2 or 3: there's lots worse. There's worse branchings than Jubilee at North Greenwich - either historic (Bakerloo at Baker Street), current (Piccadilly at Acton Town - though this is roughly equivalent), or future (Crossrail at Whitechapel). That Crossrail and the DLR cover the branch makes it unnecessary, though and it wouldn't be that pleasant if it did happen.

Crossrail would only take passengers arriving at Stratford if they reckoned that the quicker-but-a-cross-platform-change-at-Whitechapel route wouldn't be unpleasant and during the AM peak it would be unpleasant for all but those who are already on Crossrail, and not a happy affair for them either.

---

I agree about the Met line curve - though I'd want something a bit more than just reopening it - you'd ideally want it segregated and linked with the widened lines to allow trains to terminate from the east at Barbican.

With a Met diverted via Hackney, Aldgate would become a really poorly served station (for anywhere inside zones 1-6) in zone 1 (6tph). Liverpool St - Aldgate East is mostly bypassed via the Mile End interchange. It currently sees little train traffic (6tph) and I can't really see it being missed.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #4986
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Originally Posted by MiaM View Post
Would crossrail perhaps be able to take over passengers that use the Jubilee line today, thus enabling the junction at North Greenwich to happend sometime? (Seems not likely)

================

Would a reinstated junction at Liverpool Street to diverge Aldgate termintaing Metropolitan trains so they instead are connected to some slow commuter line from Liverpool Street?

If some kind of "Crossrail 42" would link Baker Street / Marylebone to one of todays southern terminus would ever be buildt thus diverging Metropolitan services southwards then a "Liverpool Street Metropolitan-Suburban curve" could instead take over Hammersmith and/or Wimbledon trains, so it would not be a wasted investment.

That would perhaps leave Liverpool Street - Aldgate East with little or no traffic, but would that be an issue? (In a future scenario with several crossrails build there would probably be some kind of link from for example Canon Street to Moorgate or Liverpool Street which could probably replace Liverpool Street - Aldgate East).
It's inevitable that Crossrail will be a big draw at Canary Wharf, and thus make loading on the whole extension less. The flipside is if there's an explosion in passenger loadings between Stratford and Shenfield, if their destination is Canary Wharf, I guess many will change to the Jubilee at Stratford rather than at Whitechapel. I still would love to see a triangular junction at Whitechapel to allow a Shenfield - Abbey Wood service, there's got to be sufficient demand for direct trains from the Stratford - Shefield route to Canary Wharf. Hey ho.

In all honesty with the perpetual increase in passenger numbers, Crossrail will probably only reduce Jubilee loading back to 2012 levels when it opens... and the current timetable with 30tph is as good as it will ever get.

Regarding diverting the Met through Liverpool St and beyond, certainly think it's a good idea... maybe taking over completely the Enfield Town / Cheshunt via Turkey Street services. However, I believe the route is blocked so for all the fannying about re-opening it which would cut straight across Liverpool St concourse, a new deeper tunnel and subterranean station is probably for the best, linking to the northernmost GER lines under the Bishopsgate goods yard site at one end, and the abandoned NR platform at Moorgate at the other... As sotonsi references, I think this has got to be in combination with quadrupling works, utilising the Moorgate - Farringdon abandoned tunnel.

I've always thought that rather than joining the Circle at Baker St, the Met could continue in a southerly direction to the West End, then following the Crossrail route to Farringdon. The opportunity could have been taken to have Crossrail quadruple between TCR and Farringdon, with 'slow' Mets having cross-platform interchanges with 'fast' Crossrail at TCR and Farringdon, and in addition the Met stopping at Holborn for the missing Piccadilly interchange.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #4987
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Old June 11th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #4988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
[...]
I've always thought that rather than joining the Circle at Baker St, the Met could continue in a southerly direction to the West End, then following the Crossrail route to Farringdon. The opportunity could have been taken to have Crossrail quadruple between TCR and Farringdon, with 'slow' Mets having cross-platform interchanges with 'fast' Crossrail at TCR and Farringdon, and in addition the Met stopping at Holborn for the missing Piccadilly interchange.
Whoa! that mirrors a crazy idea I had while checking out the great London UK: Rail transport discussion thread over at SSP:
Crossrail2 in a SW-NE alignment and a Chelney tube line both being built, with some stations being joint ones (different levels? Crossrail underneath?) since the two systems serve different purposes and thus have different station lengths, station spacing and so forth.

Some-what unrelated to that: has there been any thoughts of re-branding either Thameslink and/or Crossrail at some point (i.e. were there ever such plans) since they're both commuter-rail that, unlike the London norm, go through/under the core? Yes, the stations will be different, maybe different operators and owners, but wouldn't it be easier communicating the existence and running of such lines to the average commuter/passenger if they both had the same brand-name?
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Old June 12th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #4989
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Hi tubeman I have a question for you.
1) how come the 1959 / 62 stocks were never refurbished like the A stock. I know that they were getting fairly unreliable and life expired but the 1938 stock was overhauled to stay on the bakerloo.
2) Does any major overalls take place at the Hammersmith depot or is it just a stableling point.
3) Could LU ever use the old city widened lines as a kind of "express route" for some services to skip say barbican. Or could they be used as new sidings for the S stock?
4) And finally, if the northern line was to be split into two lines, would Golders Green Depot have to have extra capacity added to it or would it be able to cope. Also would the additional trains for the split line be built to mirror te 1995 stock or to a new design.

If you could answer any of those it would be great
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Old June 12th, 2012, 02:20 PM   #4990
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3) Could LU ever use the old city widened lines as a kind of "express route" for some services to skip say barbican. Or could they be used as new sidings for the S stock?
The plan is to convert them into sidings, which I think will happen after they're done working on the Crossrail station at Farringdon.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #4991
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4) And finally, if the northern line was to be split into two lines, would Golders Green Depot have to have extra capacity added to it or would it be able to cope.
AFAIK the idea with a split is to get a more reliable service when you don't have to move the points at the junctions. There were AFAIK no plan to actually remove the points, so the depots could be used like today (and a few trains per day would on their way to/from the depots cross the junctions in other directions than most trains).
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Old June 12th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #4992
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The plan is to convert them into sidings, which I think will happen after they're done working on the Crossrail station at Farringdon.
Thanks for the answer
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Old June 12th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #4993
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AFAIK the idea with a split is to get a more reliable service when you don't have to move the points at the junctions. There were AFAIK no plan to actually remove the points, so the depots could be used like today (and a few trains per day would on their way to/from the depots cross the junctions in other directions than most trains).
Thanks for the answer
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Old June 28th, 2012, 01:09 AM   #4994
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Hi tubeman I have a question for you.
1) how come the 1959 / 62 stocks were never refurbished like the A stock. I know that they were getting fairly unreliable and life expired but the 1938 stock was overhauled to stay on the bakerloo.
Sorry... been on holiday!

More life could have been squeezed out of the '59s through a refurb, and a couple of units actually had corporate livery applied (didn't look right in my opinion), but I think that ultimately the fleet was written off because maintaining the mixed Northern Line fleet of 59/62 and 72 MkI stocks was unnecessarily complex. I presume also one eye was on upgrade / ATO, which the 59/62/72 certainly weren't capable of... so by the time a refurb had prepared for ATO and OPO (one person operation... ie removing Guards) as well as internal refit / external paint, it probably would have been cheaper to design and build a new fleet of trains.

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2) Does any major overalls take place at the Hammersmith depot or is it just a stableling point.
Yes it is the sole overhaul depot for C Stocks, I believe this used to take place at Neasden, but Hammersmith is fully equipped with lifting roads, wheel lathes, etc.

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3) Could LU ever use the old city widened lines as a kind of "express route" for some services to skip say barbican. Or could they be used as new sidings for the S stock?
I think they'd be useless for 'express' services as you can only skip Barbican. Stabling sidings are more likely, but parts of the route are now blocked I believe due to Crossrail works.

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4) And finally, if the northern line was to be split into two lines, would Golders Green Depot have to have extra capacity added to it or would it be able to cope. Also would the additional trains for the split line be built to mirror te 1995 stock or to a new design.

If you could answer any of those it would be great
I think the balance is about right... Edgware - Charing Cross - Kennington has Golders Green depot and Edgware sidings, while High Barnet - Bank - Morden has Morden depot and Highgate wood / High Barnet sidings... If additional stabling capacity is required on either line, either Edgware or Highgate Wood sidings have potential to expand.

I'm not sure how many spare 95 stock trains there are, i.e. how much service uplift could be accommodated without new rolling stock. I suspect that if both split lines are running 30tph through the core under TBTC ATO then they'd need more trains... but the faster journey times provided by TBTC is tantamount to extra trains (e.g. you get more tph with the same number of trains in service)
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:25 PM   #4995
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3) Could LU ever use the old city widened lines as a kind of "express route" for some services to skip say barbican. Or could they be used as new sidings for the S stock?
Read http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...ingdon-part-1/
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #4996
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Thanks for the answers
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Old July 14th, 2012, 09:16 AM   #4997
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Third edition of the London Railway Atlas out on August 2nd
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Old July 14th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #4998
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Don't buy it from Amazon though - that would be like taking food from the mouths of Tubey's likkle babies.
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Old July 14th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #4999
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Hi Tubeman.

I was reading a page about the Seven Sisters platforms on London Reconnections, and came across this comment, underneath the article.

Quote:
Seven sisters isn’t the most interesting station by a long shot.
Moorgate is the most interesting station – open air bits you can’t see, disused platforms, a tube line not on the tube map, and vast hidden bits that are bigger than the entire public part of the station (apart from the platforms themselves).
Care to shed some light, or do you know of any sites that explain what this person is alluding to?
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Old July 14th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #5000
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The "tube line that isn't on the tube map" probably refers to the northern city line which was part of London underground until 1975 when it was sold to British Rail. The platforms along that section are still in Network Southeasts corporate platform design. At the moment it is operates by First Capital Connect (the thameslink franchise). The disused platforms are probably the former thameslink terminus platforms. A short branch along the city widened lines leaving at Faringdon used to go fom Faringdon to Moorgate via Barbican. This service was withdrawn in 2009 as part of the thameslink program.The bits that are disused I'm not sure about but I honk that when the station was built by the metropolitan railway they had a lot of back passages around the northern city line area. I went on a tour to that bit and the were large over runs around the platforms and a lot of old CSLR tiles up. There was also an old direction sign for the metropolitan railway.

Last edited by Manchester77; July 15th, 2012 at 02:59 AM.
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