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Old July 15th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #5001
MiaM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Hi Tubeman.

I was reading a page about the Seven Sisters platforms on London Reconnections, and came across this comment, underneath the article.
Read the (two) articles about Farringdon on London Reconnections, that should shed some light on everything except the Northern City "tube style" NR Line.
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Old July 15th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #5002
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The "tube line that isn't on the tube map" probably refers to the northern city line which was part of London underground until 1975 when it was sold to British Rail. The platforms along that section are still in Network Southeasts corporate platform design. At the moment it is operates by First Capital Connect (the thameslink franchise). The disused platforms are probably the former thameslink terminus platforms. A short branch along the city widened lines leaving at Faringdon used to go fom Faringdon to Moorgate via Barbican. This service was withdrawn in 2009 as part of the thameslink program.The bits that are disused I'm not sure about but I honk that when the station was built by the metropolitan railway they had a lot of back passages around the northern city line area. I went on a tour to that bit and the were large over runs around the platforms and a lot of old CSLR tiles up. There was also an old direction sign for the metropolitan railway.
I think that's pretty much the long & short of it... the comment 1Londoner saw was using a little artistic licence I think!

Like many interchange stations, I would assume that Moorgate was actually once three separate stations, each with their own street level entrance, lifts (CSLR and GNCR), and emergency stairs. This is certainly the case for Oxford Circus (original CLR entrance / shafts abandoned) and Euston (original CCEHR entrance / shafts abandoned), and no doubt several more where original yet defunct station buildings survive. It follows that there are a wealth of redundant passageways and shafts at these stations, where once originally independent and competing companies amalgamated and therefore subsurface interchange passageways were provided for ease of interchange. This often led to one set of surface buildings and lifts to be abandoned.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #5003
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Thanks for the responses guys!

Tubeman you renewing for the upcoming season? I gave up my Silver end of season before last but kept my membership for away games , seems to be loads of people sacking it in. £61 (not inc fees) min next season for a Cat A.
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Old July 16th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #5004
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Thanks for the responses guys!

Tubeman you renewing for the upcoming season? I gave up my Silver end of season before last but kept my membership for away games , seems to be loads of people sacking it in. £61 (not inc fees) min next season for a Cat A.
Yeah, I've renewed my season ticket... £1,075
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Old July 22nd, 2012, 10:50 AM   #5005
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Tubeman, looking at Moorgate, do you have any 3D / isometric images of the station? I'd like to clarify how the Crossrail works block any potential extension of the GN&City line southwards, but I think the station deserves a more thorough exploration, a bit like we've just done on Smithfield and Farringdon at London Reconnections.

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Old July 23rd, 2012, 12:36 AM   #5006
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These two are online





The barrier to southward extension may well be the H&C / Circle / Met, depending on how much room there is between the top of the Northern tubes and the bottom of the subsurface tunnel. As you can see, the GNCR is directly above the Northern... I guess it could drop to run alongside the Northern on the same level, thus weaving below the Circle / H&C / Met and above the Crossrail tunnels, but there appears to be very limited room for this.
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Old July 23rd, 2012, 06:46 AM   #5007
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Would GNCR have been buildt over Northern Line if there weren't space to extend southwards under the Circle?

Would the proposed and approved extention to Lothbury even been suggested if it weren't possible to extend without moving the platform tunnels at Moorgate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothbury_tube_station

It would have been nice if the 3D model had been released as a 3D cad file of some kind, so you could rotate the view.

Perhaps the Post Office Railway is in the way, but that line could possible be cut (and perhaps moved if it were to be re-used as a tunnel for wires e.t.c).
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Old July 24th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #5008
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Not exactly an LU question, but seeing the pics above made me wonder: as the post office railway isn't in use anymore, why not find another way to use the tunnels?
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Old July 24th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #5009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaM View Post
Would GNCR have been buildt over Northern Line if there weren't space to extend southwards under the Circle?

Would the proposed and approved extention to Lothbury even been suggested if it weren't possible to extend without moving the platform tunnels at Moorgate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothbury_tube_station

It would have been nice if the 3D model had been released as a 3D cad file of some kind, so you could rotate the view.

Perhaps the Post Office Railway is in the way, but that line could possible be cut (and perhaps moved if it were to be re-used as a tunnel for wires e.t.c).
There must have been enough room below the Circle tunnel then, if Lothbury was in progress. This probably sums up why it was abandoned:

One peculiarity of the scheme was that the running tunnels between Moorgate and Lothbury stations were to have been shorter than the platform tunnels at the two stations; meaning that the front of a full length train would have arrived at Lothbury before the end would have left Moorgate.

The Post office railway's tunnels are too small a bore to have any human transportation use... maybe like the Tower subway they'll end up with something boring like pipes or cables passing through.

As it stands, the system is merely 'mothballed'... I do hope it's reused for its proper purpose, a great piece of infrastructure which would sure take a lot of Post office vans off the roads of London
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #5010
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As it stands, the system is merely 'mothballed'... I do hope it's reused for its proper purpose, a great piece of infrastructure which would sure take a lot of Post office vans off the roads of London
Out of curiosity, why was it mothballed in the first place?
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Old July 25th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #5011
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Money... the excuse was that it was 5 x more expensive than road transport

However, I'm sure if there was a bit of investment in automation, it could be very cost-efficient in the long run

Clearly far faster, cleaner, and less labour intensive than a fleet of Royal mail vans with the right investment
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #5012
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Maybe worming around underneath a capital's perceived a blemish on royal branding
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Old July 25th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #5013
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Wasn't the problem that sorting offices moved so they weren't connected to the railway - and the move was ironically made because of road cognestion around the old sorting offices?

I may well remember everything wrong about this
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Old July 26th, 2012, 07:35 PM   #5014
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Wasn't the problem that sorting offices moved so they weren't connected to the railway - and the move was ironically made because of road cognestion around the old sorting offices?

I may well remember everything wrong about this
No, I think the sorting offices are in the same places still, but maybe there has been rationalisation so that movement between remaining offices is less.

Mount Pleasant is certainly still very much in operation, I used to live next to it. It's such a large chunk of prime central London real estate that it's inevitable it's going to one day be redeveloped though. Bizarrely, when I lived next door to it, any undelivered mail for us would go to Rathbone Place sorting office near Tottenham Court Road... Mount Pleasant didn't even deal with my postcode (WC1).
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Old July 27th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #5015
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Bus question so perhaps not the best place.

Is there a system when it comes to numbering the routes? Things around clapham and Brixton seem to have threes, for examples and finchley road 13. I reckon that if there was a pattern I could spot it, I just don't want to look if there isn't one there to begin with!
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Old July 27th, 2012, 03:48 PM   #5016
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Originally Posted by davidaiow View Post
Bus question so perhaps not the best place.

Is there a system when it comes to numbering the routes? Things around clapham and Brixton seem to have threes, for examples and finchley road 13. I reckon that if there was a pattern I could spot it, I just don't want to look if there isn't one there to begin with!
There are some 'rules' but most of the process is pretty organic. Generally routes under 200 are the old traditional routes. The 2xx series started out as single deck routes but many have since been converted to double deck owing to increased usage. The 3xx and 4xx series routes are typically results of splitting the traditional routes, with 3xx and 4xx used for derived routes north and south of the river respectively. For example the 29 (a north London route) became 29 and 329; and the 68 (a south London route) became 68 and 468 (loosely speaking only). The north and south distinction doesn't really apply anymore, as you have the 444 in the north and 312 in the south.

There isn't really any geographical pattern. The only patterns are as a result of routes evolving and splitting. When new routes are created sometimes a number related to existing routes are chosen.
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Old July 27th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #5017
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Good thing NCT's around, because I didn't have a clue

All I'd ever noticed is overlapping routes one with a 2-digit number and the other prefixed, e.g. my local 63 and 363, 53 and 453... interestingly this sort of goes against what NCT just said about north / south as all are basically south London routes:

63 = Honor Oak Park to King's Cross
363 = Crystal Palace to Elephant & Castle

53 = Plumstead to Whitehall
453 = Deptford Bridge to Marylebone

Don't forget the numerous routes with letter prefixes associated with suburban centres, e.g. 'E' = Ealing, 'W' = Walthamstow etc
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Old July 29th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #5018
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The letters used to confuse me too, but I guessed as much. Thanks guys! Very interesting! As Tubeman said, it's mainly things like 13 and 113 Finchley Road, 82 and 2 (BS-Victoria), 3, 35 and 355 (Brixton). 37, 137, 417 (Clapham Common).

It's a shame there isn't a pattern. It could make guessing whether a bus is the right one for you easier when you are running to catch it!
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Old July 29th, 2012, 08:46 AM   #5019
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Originally Posted by davidaiow View Post
The letters used to confuse me too, but I guessed as much. Thanks guys! Very interesting! As Tubeman said, it's mainly things like 13 and 113 Finchley Road, 82 and 2 (BS-Victoria), 3, 35 and 355 (Brixton). 37, 137, 417 (Clapham Common).

It's a shame there isn't a pattern. It could make guessing whether a bus is the right one for you easier when you are running to catch it!
I doubt any system could be devised that would do that due to the complex nature of routing.

I grew up in Clapham in the 70s and remember the buses that went through Clapham Common were the 37, 137 (as mentioned above), but also the 35 (to Brixton), the 45 (to Clapham Junction one way, Brixton via Stockwell the other), the 155 which followed the route of the Northern Line and the 88, which was the most frequent bus along the high street and down to Clapham South. There was also an infrequent 189 which turned down Nightingale Lane to who knows where as I never used it.

I'm not sure what that says about the bus numbering and if there are any discernible patterns!
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Old July 29th, 2012, 09:38 AM   #5020
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There are some 'rules' but most of the process is pretty organic. Generally routes under 200 are the old traditional routes. The 2xx series started out as single deck routes but many have since been converted to double deck owing to increased usage. The 3xx and 4xx series routes are typically results of splitting the traditional routes, with 3xx and 4xx used for derived routes north and south of the river respectively.
I'm casting my mind back to my younger days in the 60s and from what I can remember:

1-299 were routes inside Greater London and were operated by red buses.

300-499 were London Transport's 'country routes' and operated by green buses. These became 'London Country' in 1970 (?).

The 5xx were the 'Red Arrow' express buses in central London.

7xx were 'Green Line' routes.
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