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Old December 17th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #5121
Piltup Man
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Tubeman - I suppose you are aware of this steam train in the Underground. What are superb idea to celebrate 150 years of the tube.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #5122
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No no no!

If Aldwych were simply built as the terminus for the line from the north, the tunnels running south would line up with the tunnels from the north, but they don't.

So the line south must have been built as a separate concept, never intended to have been a part of the main route.

Derek
I was under the impression that the first stretch of the Piccadilly in Central London ran from the north and terminated at Aldwych, with the branch (which became the main line) to Covent Garden etc being built later.

It is odd though how the track configuration suggests otherwise.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 02:39 AM   #5123
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Tubeman - I suppose you are aware of this steam train in the Underground. What are superb idea to celebrate 150 years of the tube.
Great idea but I can't believe they got that past health and safety. Even the early Metropolitan Line trains were fitted with condensing systems to try and stop the tunnels being filled with steam and smoke. Also, as I understand it, a large part of the original Metropolitan Line stations have been built over so there would be fewer vents for steam and smoke.

Interesting to hear what Tubeman says about that one.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 06:42 PM   #5124
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Great idea but I can't believe they got that past health and safety. Even the early Metropolitan Line trains were fitted with condensing systems to try and stop the tunnels being filled with steam and smoke. Also, as I understand it, a large part of the original Metropolitan Line stations have been built over so there would be fewer vents for steam and smoke.

Interesting to hear what Tubeman says about that one.
Im no expert on the subject, but the event of Steam on the Met doesn't actually use steam engines. They use the electric Sarah Siddons and two Class 20 diesels.
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Old December 18th, 2012, 11:53 PM   #5125
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Well of course they're not running a service with the steam locos, just one train or so. It will take a while for the smoke to clear though, but it won't build up to any great extent. The train probably won't stop either, so it'll just be coasting through

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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:38 AM   #5126
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I think they should run a service with steam locos - show people who complain about the tube today what their ancestors had to put up with.

Those openings in the roof at Baker Street once opened up to surface level but were built over years ago. When the station was remodelled, lighting was installed in the recesses to give the impression of natural light.

I think the worst example of steam use in an underground railway must have been the Mersey Railway which had four miles of tunnel and three underground stations with no proper ventilation (being deep level there were no ventilation openings). The railway company did install fans but they were only partially effective and the line was probably the first steam railway in the world to be electrified in 1903.

I guess the worst job on that system must have been manning the mid-river signalling cabin (used for track sectioning) which was at the lowest point of the tunnel and therefore at a point where the smoke would never clear.

Apparently regular users of the Mersey Railway in steam days said that riding the line meant that they would feel at home when they eventually went to hell.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #5127
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Tubeman - I suppose you are aware of this steam train in the Underground. What are superb idea to celebrate 150 years of the tube.
Aware? I'm a steward on the trains

I had my training last week... There's about 20 of us for the 2 runs on 13th & 20th January, don't know which car I'll be getting yet, but fingers crossed for the restored Met compartment coach... otherwise it's one of the four cars of the former Chesham shuttle (non-compartment).

Really excited to be a part of it
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:55 PM   #5128
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I was under the impression that the first stretch of the Piccadilly in Central London ran from the north and terminated at Aldwych, with the branch (which became the main line) to Covent Garden etc being built later.

It is odd though how the track configuration suggests otherwise.
No, Finsbury Park to Hammersmith opened all at the same time.

The confusion and torturous twists & turns of the line come about from it being the amalgamation of three different bills, it's basically a Frankenstein's monster of three bits of different Tube lines stuck together.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #5129
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Well of course they're not running a service with the steam locos, just one train or so. It will take a while for the smoke to clear though, but it won't build up to any great extent. The train probably won't stop either, so it'll just be coasting through

Derek
On the 13th the 'Met No.1' steam loco will be on the east end and Sarah Siddons electric loco on the west end... the train will run out from Lillie Bridge Depot into Kensington Olympia platform then under steam traction via High St Ken to Moorgate, returning under electric traction, and shuttling between Edgware Road and Moorgate in this manner (steam eastbound, electric westbound).

On the 20th the arrangement will be slightly different due to engineering works, the steam loco will still be on the east end initially, but the train will run from Olympia to reverse at Gloucester Rd to Moorgate via High St Ken, so the electric and steam ends will swap. This is because the west end of the heritage train shuttle will be Baker Street not Edgware Rd, and the west end of Baker Street platform 2 is open to the elements while the east end is under cover, so it was decided to have the steam loco at the west end for the shuttle so the steam & smoke can exhaust while the train is standing at Baker Street.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #5130
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It's worth noting that steam ran through the subsurface tunnels until 1971, as steam-hauled engineers trains operated out of Neasden Depot until then.

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Old December 20th, 2012, 04:01 AM   #5131
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Quote:
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No, Finsbury Park to Hammersmith opened all at the same time.

The confusion and torturous twists & turns of the line come about from it being the amalgamation of three different bills, it's basically a Frankenstein's monster of three bits of different Tube lines stuck together.
Actually I think I know where I got mixed up now; it was the Charing Cross branch of the Northern and the Bakerloo which I believe both originally terminated just north of the river. For some strange reason my addled memory got them mixed up with the Piccadilly.

Even odder then why Aldwych exists. What was the long term plan for it? Was it just a case that they wanted a terminus on the Strand for some reason?
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Old December 20th, 2012, 03:25 PM   #5132
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The other benefit is that someone accidentally falling onto the track has somewhere to lie without being struck.
From many years ago I recall seeing on Blue Peter (it may have been in a annual book) Peter Duncan being briefed, if necessary to like down in a pit in a particular direction. I think it was with his head towards the train so that the air draft from a train passing over him could escape from his untucked shirt rather than pick him up and pull him under the wheels.
Sound feasible?
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Old December 20th, 2012, 06:11 PM   #5133
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Aware? I'm a steward on the trains

I had my training last week... There's about 20 of us for the 2 runs on 13th & 20th January, don't know which car I'll be getting yet, but fingers crossed for the restored Met compartment coach... otherwise it's one of the four cars of the former Chesham shuttle (non-compartment).

Really excited to be a part of it
Hey, congrats mate!
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Old December 20th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #5134
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Even odder then why Aldwych exists. What was the long term plan for it? Was it just a case that they wanted a terminus on the Strand for some reason?
There must be more to this than is obvious.

When it was built surely the line west would have been built as a branch off the north south line terminating at Aldwych? Which means the NB and SB Aldwych tunnels must have connected with the lines to Finsbury park somehow. Yet now the NB mainline connects to the SB Alwych line and the NB Aldwych lie is an orphan.

I accept it was built as this hotch-potch of routes, but would they really have built this short stub in this way? It just don't make sense.

What's it look like in 3D?

Derek
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Old December 20th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #5135
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Going off the far more interesting topics of 150 year celebrations and Aldwych...

Tubeman, do you know why those retimetabling the Met line decided that it would be a good idea to change it from Chesham trains being overtaken by Chiltern trains off-peak to be Amersham trains being overtaken? Or (as it was Chiltern who changed their times) why it wasn't considered worth it to keep the service pattern deemed the sensible one when the Chesham shuttle was removed?

I guess it does mean that Amersham customers like me know to always go to Marylebone (as opposed to Baker Street) or the Chiltern platforms at Harrow, but Chesham people can't change onto/from the not-that-fast Chiltern services in zones 7/8, stopping everywhere and Chilterns will take all the Amersham passengers.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #5136
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Actually I think I know where I got mixed up now; it was the Charing Cross branch of the Northern and the Bakerloo which I believe both originally terminated just north of the river. For some strange reason my addled memory got them mixed up with the Piccadilly.

Even odder then why Aldwych exists. What was the long term plan for it? Was it just a case that they wanted a terminus on the Strand for some reason?
Yes it was the Charing Cross branch... Originally terminated at the current Charing Cross as a simple two-platform terminus like Elephant & Castle Bakerloo. Then, a single track loop was added beyond the station which curved 360 degrees with a single platform at the current Embankment (hence why the northbound = original platform is today on a tight radius curve while the southbound is straight). Finally, the line was extended to Kennington to complete the Northern Line, with the loop abandoned except the portion through the current northbound platform at Embankment.

Aldwych was deemed useful as it served the theatres along The Strand, indeed there used to be late-night through trains from Aldwych to Finsbury park to convey theatre patrons home... and it's also close to the legal district and Kings College London. However, it was doomed to be an appendix as splitting the westbound service between Aldwych and the 'main' line towards South Kensington would always have reduced the potential tph along the 'main', so it was better to run the branch as a shuttle.

It was often proposed to be extended, Waterloo being the logical new terminus, but even then I don't believe it was ever going to be re-connected to the Piccadilly Line proper in terms of services. It would have more been like a Waterloo & City type affair shuttling between Waterloo and Holborn via Aldwych (ideally with interchange provided with Temple station). This would have been a useful little service and viable today I'm sure.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #5137
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From many years ago I recall seeing on Blue Peter (it may have been in a annual book) Peter Duncan being briefed, if necessary to like down in a pit in a particular direction. I think it was with his head towards the train so that the air draft from a train passing over him could escape from his untucked shirt rather than pick him up and pull him under the wheels.
Sound feasible?
Good advice if you're ever in the 'four foot' (between the running rails) and unable to escape... head facing traffic so your clothes don't snag... or failing that you get instantly brained!

I was taught this tactic for my Network Rail Personal Track Safety and Controller of Site safety qualifications (I had to be conversant with NR rules & regs working on the District Line as an incident manager), so it's not an urban myth.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #5138
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Going off the far more interesting topics of 150 year celebrations and Aldwych...

Tubeman, do you know why those retimetabling the Met line decided that it would be a good idea to change it from Chesham trains being overtaken by Chiltern trains off-peak to be Amersham trains being overtaken? Or (as it was Chiltern who changed their times) why it wasn't considered worth it to keep the service pattern deemed the sensible one when the Chesham shuttle was removed?

I guess it does mean that Amersham customers like me know to always go to Marylebone (as opposed to Baker Street) or the Chiltern platforms at Harrow, but Chesham people can't change onto/from the not-that-fast Chiltern services in zones 7/8, stopping everywhere and Chilterns will take all the Amersham passengers.
No idea, there must have been a reason for it I'm sure!
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Old December 24th, 2012, 12:06 PM   #5139
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Aware? I'm a steward on the trains

I had my training last week... There's about 20 of us for the 2 runs on 13th & 20th January, don't know which car I'll be getting yet, but fingers crossed for the restored Met compartment coach... otherwise it's one of the four cars of the former Chesham shuttle (non-compartment).

Really excited to be a part of it
Hey, looking forward to see you on the last train on the 20th from Moorgate.
And a very "God Jul" to You all!
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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #5140
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Hey, looking forward to see you on the last train on the 20th from Moorgate.
And a very "God Jul" to You all!
Hopefully see you then. I'm not stewarding all of the trips (it's being shared out fairly between us, depending on availability).
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