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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #5141
Kolony
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I have a very big question:

Is the London Underground on debt??? because extensions come so slowly. And why do the extensions come so slowly??? For example In Moscow an average of 2-3 stations open every year.

Oh, and P.S., my uncle worked on the London Underground as an engineer/mechanic/technician???

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Old January 4th, 2013, 08:39 PM   #5142
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Quote:
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Im no expert on the subject, but the event of Steam on the Met doesn't actually use steam engines. They use the electric Sarah Siddons and two Class 20 diesels.
As the name suggests, Steam on the Met involved preserved steam locos operating trains on the outer reaches of the met from 1989 to 2000 and there are a number of youtube videos showing these.

In recent years Sarah Siddons has worked heritage trains with a Class 20 but this has never been described as 'steam on the met', for obvious reasons.

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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:09 AM   #5143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolony View Post
I have a very big question:

Is the London Underground on debt??? because extensions come so slowly. And why do the extensions come so slowly??? For example In Moscow an average of 2-3 stations open every year.

Oh, and P.S., my uncle worked on the London Underground as an engineer/mechanic/technician???

We break even in terms of day to day operating costs (i.e. fare revenue exceeds wages), but what we don't come close to is being able to finance things like new rolling stock, line upgrades, extensions, etc... for these we have to go cap in hand to get the finance, hence it's a slow process.

Bear in mind that London is not growing geographically... it cannot due to the Green Belt... so it is unlikely that there will ever be the need for significant extensions of the LU network. The current emphasis is the upgrade of current infrastructure to ATO with new trains: getting the most out of the tunnels we already had through increased tph and reliability.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 06:40 AM   #5144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
We break even in terms of day to day operating costs (i.e. fare revenue exceeds wages), but what we don't come close to is being able to finance things like new rolling stock, line upgrades, extensions, etc... for these we have to go cap in hand to get the finance, hence it's a slow process.

Bear in mind that London is not growing geographically... it cannot due to the Green Belt... so it is unlikely that there will ever be the need for significant extensions of the LU network. The current emphasis is the upgrade of current infrastructure to ATO with new trains: getting the most out of the tunnels we already had through increased tph and reliability.
You are definetely right. Ive been on the Underground and i think they should spend money on renovating stations and uprgrading rolling stock. I mean, it gets so stuffy it gets nerve-breaking.

Last edited by Kolony; January 8th, 2013 at 12:58 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #5145
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You are definetely right. Ive been on the Undergoround and i think they should spend money on renovating stations and uprgrading rolling stock. I mean, it gets so stuffy it gets nerve-breaking.
A new name for the Circle line methinks?

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Old January 8th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #5146
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A new name for the Circle line methinks?

UnderGoRound
*Underground. My mistake. =
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Old January 8th, 2013, 04:04 AM   #5147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolony View Post
I have a very big question:

Is the London Underground on debt??? because extensions come so slowly. And why do the extensions come so slowly??? For example In Moscow an average of 2-3 stations open every year.

Oh, and P.S., my uncle worked on the London Underground as an engineer/mechanic/technician???

New stations are opening: in the last 20 years or so, an 11 station extension of the Jubilee Line was opened; quite a few new lines and extensions on the DLR; and several new stations on the LO. In a few more years time of course, several massive new stations will open on Crossrail.

I know they're not all 'tube' lines, but they are all new urban stations in London which is what matters.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 12:01 PM   #5148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Bear in mind that London is not growing geographically... it cannot due to the Green Belt... so it is unlikely that there will ever be the need for significant extensions of the LU network. The current emphasis is the upgrade of current infrastructure to ATO with new trains: getting the most out of the tunnels we already had through increased tph and reliability.
So, considering increasing population without increasing surface area...

Priorites:
- Upgrade the current lines to modern standards (where possible) to increase capacity and reliability.
- New lines through the city center to increase capacity where it is needed now and where it is seen to be needed going forward.
- extending lines within the urban area that would create better connections.

NOT a priority
- extending existing lines further out.

Am I understanding things right?
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Old January 8th, 2013, 06:15 PM   #5149
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yes. This is also precisely what is happening. Although the new lines* are not part of London Underground, they are part of the mainline railway network.

* I say lines, but only one is new, Crossrail, the Thameslink project is an upgrade that will double capacity, plus the London Overground developments are also an upgrade of sorts with some new sections.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #5150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
So, considering increasing population without increasing surface area...

Priorites:
- Upgrade the current lines to modern standards (where possible) to increase capacity and reliability.
- New lines through the city center to increase capacity where it is needed now and where it is seen to be needed going forward.
- extending lines within the urban area that would create better connections.

NOT a priority
- extending existing lines further out.

Am I understanding things right?
Yes, correct

There are a couple of exceptions... The Northern Line Charing Cross branch and Bakerloo Line at the southern end could both bear significant extension into South London. The former is looking likely to go on a somewhat wasteful foray west to Battersea (money talks), and the latter has been long planned to extend, most recently to Hayes via Peckham and Lewisham.

In all honesty, I'd say that once these two extensions happen, the traditional LU network is ostensibly complete (as future tunnel building will be in the Crossrail vein, linking existing NR routes).
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Old January 10th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #5151
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The way I see it those two extension are to cover areas that while they don't have tube now, aren't any less central than many places that do have the tube. Extending them within that "should-be-tube-covered area" and also then connecting to other rail lines (i.e. interchange stations) makes sense within the priorities I listed. Sure, they're outwards extension, but they aren't going to go anywhere near as far out as most other lines do already.

I can see your point on creating new Crossrail/Thameslink tunnels instead of going for new tube lines through the core, that makes a lot of sense. Not that there never will be a good case for a new tube line, just that the emphasis now should be Crossrail style connections. Once those are done (that'll take a while) it'll be time to look at new tube lines. Unless we all teleport our way around by then.

On that note: how do you see the needs/possibilities for Crossrail2 (and 3, and 4...)? I know there's been talk of a SW-NE line for a long time, is that the "preferred" Crossrail2 now? What stations/lines would that link up (i.e. like Paddington and Liverpool Street for Crossrail1) ?

Also: happy 150 years and a day to the Tube!
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Old January 10th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #5152
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How many "shared" sections of track are there on the Underground network, either with main line services or between Tube and subsurface stock?

I can think of:

Part of the Watford DC line (Bakerloo and London Overground).

North and South of Ealing Common (District and Piccadilly), possibly including Acton Town.

The Richmond branch of the District line (District and London Overground).

Am I missing anything?
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Old January 10th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #5153
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Quote:
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On that note: how do you see the needs/possibilities for Crossrail2 (and 3, and 4...)?
Crossrail 2, or the Chelsea-Hackney line, is currently being developed by TfL and is expected to have a SW-NE alignment.

There are two options being actively considered - a conventional automatic metro, or a longer, more expensive but much more beneficial Crossrail-type line connecting suburban services on the South West Mainline and West Anglia Mainline via Central London. This releases much needed capacity on the surface lines into Waterloo and Liverpool Street and is expected to be the favoured option - a map of how the latter could look can be found here

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Old January 10th, 2013, 04:50 PM   #5154
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So the vibe now is that the Chelney line will be Crossrail2 and not a tube line (automatic or not)? I know of the line, but how far into the future are we talking and how sure can one be that it'll be in the Crossrail-format?
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Old January 10th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #5155
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Well it will be crossrail format thats for sure - ie standard mainline loading gauge an stock.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #5156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
How many "shared" sections of track are there on the Underground network, either with main line services or between Tube and subsurface stock?

I can think of:

Part of the Watford DC line (Bakerloo and London Overground).

North and South of Ealing Common (District and Piccadilly), possibly including Acton Town.

The Richmond branch of the District line (District and London Overground).

Am I missing anything?
Rayners Lane to Uxbridge

South of East Putney on the Wimbledon branch is used daily for SWT stock moves, and occasionally wholesale for SWT passenger diversions much to the District Line's annoyance (NR signal this section so can do as they please).

Technically the entire District / Piccadilly Line section from West Kensington to Hanger Lane Junction (north of Ealing Common) is shared, with trains running on each other's routes due to disruption (e.g. if there's a 'one under' at Turnham Green Picc, Picc trains can be diverted down the District, or vice versa). There used to be an early morning Picc train that reversed east to west at West Kensington (don't know if there still is), I guess a strange vestige of when Lillie Bridge was the Piccadilly Line's only depot. Obviously the short section through Ealing Common is shared on a daily basis.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #5157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
How many "shared" sections of track are there on the Underground network, either with main line services or between Tube and subsurface stock?

I can think of:

Part of the Watford DC line (Bakerloo and London Overground).

North and South of Ealing Common (District and Piccadilly), possibly including Acton Town.

The Richmond branch of the District line (District and London Overground).

Am I missing anything?
Harrow-Amersham (Chiltern, Subsurface)

If Croxley link will be built there would probably be Chiltern trains operating Aylesbury-Watford.

Neasden depot are connected both to subsurface and tube lines (Metropolitan and Jubilee line).

There's also some connections between LU and NR that's not used for passenger services, for example at the west end of West Ruislip station
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Old January 12th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #5158
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If Croxley link will be built there would probably be Chiltern trains operating Aylesbury-Watford.
Not to mention the Met/Overground shared running through Watford High Street (I'd imagine that they would use 2 dedicated platforms each at Watford Junction, though obviously there's the case of disruption and being able to share).
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Obviously the short section through Ealing Common is shared on a daily basis.
Which, to answer Charlie P's question, does include the platforms at Acton Town - the Piccadilly can and does use all 4 (or at least both the westbound ones).

Similar to the Piccadilly and District in West London, the Jubilee and Met used to run a similar arraignment in North London. There was even a token weekly (or was it more often) Met train that stopped at stops between Wembley Park and Finchley Road, as well as several early morning/late night ones that stopped at Neasden's Met line platforms.
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Old January 13th, 2013, 01:20 AM   #5159
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Yes, correct

There are a couple of exceptions... The Northern Line Charing Cross branch and Bakerloo Line at the southern end could both bear significant extension into South London. The former is looking likely to go on a somewhat wasteful foray west to Battersea (money talks), and the latter has been long planned to extend, most recently to Hayes via Peckham and Lewisham.

In all honesty, I'd say that once these two extensions happen, the traditional LU network is ostensibly complete (as future tunnel building will be in the Crossrail vein, linking existing NR routes).
Is there any chance that the Northern Line will be split in the foreseeable future? It seems awfully inefficient he way it's run. I realize this would need massive reconstruction of Camden Town.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 01:22 PM   #5160
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Is there any chance that the Northern Line will be split in the foreseeable future? It seems awfully inefficient he way it's run. I realize this would need massive reconstruction of Camden Town.
I'd assume if / when the Battersea extension opens, the line will be split 'officially'.
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