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Old March 15th, 2013, 06:14 PM   #5201
Manchester77
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Hey I've been looking at the history of the DLr recently and it's got me wondering, why don't the stations have roundels like LU and LO stations. It's managed simular to LO so how come the stops don't have a turquoise roundel?
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Old March 16th, 2013, 03:09 AM   #5202
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Hey I've been looking at the history of the DLr recently and it's got me wondering, why don't the stations have roundels like LU and LO stations. It's managed simular to LO so how come the stops don't have a turquoise roundel?
Thanks
I guess because the DLR system mostly evolved before TfL even existed (2000), and it has retained branding autonomy to a large extent subsequent to this.

London Overground was created post-TfL so has had aggressive TfL-type branding since its inception, one of the main selling points has been the manner in which the branding has aped the Tube to sell the system as being 'turn up and go' metro. I suppose DLR has never needed this marketing intervention.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 03:26 AM   #5203
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Yeah never really thought of that. I just thought that it was odd of TfL not to incorporate DLR branding into their integrated network.
Thank you
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Old March 16th, 2013, 07:32 PM   #5204
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What's the status of Croxley Rail Link?
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Old March 16th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #5205
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I'd imagine things will start to happen soon.

Public Inquiry closed on 31-10-12 - "the Inspector will supply his report to the Secretary of State for Transport, whose decision is expected by spring 2013."
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Old March 17th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #5206
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what exactly was the problem with the circle line?
i saw the post earlier in the thread about delaya and turn around time et al. but....why is this such an ssue on the underground but not other loop lines? -there are lots of them out there.
the yamanote line in tokyo for intance works fine.

could a cure for delays not be to ignore one scheduled train and shunt all trains on the line backward to the next train's timetable- everything goes slow for a few minutes to delay trains so much theyre on schedule again
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Old March 17th, 2013, 01:14 PM   #5207
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I'd imagine things will start to happen soon.

Public Inquiry closed on 31-10-12 - "the Inspector will supply his report to the Secretary of State for Transport, whose decision is expected by spring 2013."
Yes, last forecast opening I saw was 2016
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Old March 17th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #5208
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what exactly was the problem with the circle line?
i saw the post earlier in the thread about delaya and turn around time et al. but....why is this such an ssue on the underground but not other loop lines? -there are lots of them out there.
the yamanote line in tokyo for intance works fine.

could a cure for delays not be to ignore one scheduled train and shunt all trains on the line backward to the next train's timetable- everything goes slow for a few minutes to delay trains so much theyre on schedule again
It's the 'flat' junctions with other services, primarily. If the Circle Line was a simple circle without any interface with other services (e.g. Glasgow), then it probably could just run round and round all day.

Unfortunately for the LU Circle, the trains are vying with several District, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City Line services, all of which have 'flat' (not grade separated) junctions. The junctions work on 'first come, first served' rather than to timetable, so a small delay can be compounded by losing a timetabled path at a junction, in just one lap of the circle many minutes could be (and were) lost with no opportunity for recovery.

Your remedy doesn't really help matters, as customers will be travelling from A to B on the Circle, and if your proposed extended dwell time / go slow happens to be between your A and B, then it's not much of a service. Also bear in mind these trains are running on the same tracks as non-Circle services, so to delay the Circle trains back to the following train's path would delay everything else.
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Old March 18th, 2013, 03:19 PM   #5209
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Unfortunately for the LU Circle, the trains are vying with several District, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City Line services, all of which have 'flat' (not grade separated) junctions. The junctions work on 'first come, first served' rather than to timetable, so a small delay can be compounded by losing a timetabled path at a junction, in just one lap of the circle many minutes could be (and were) lost with no opportunity for recovery.
Which presumably is why you often see Circle and H&C line trains running one after the other!
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Old March 18th, 2013, 09:36 PM   #5210
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Which presumably is why you often see Circle and H&C line trains running one after the other!
That's the one

But that said, the alternative is hopeless (e.g. a queue of District Line trains approaching Gloucester Road or Tower Hill, waiting so the Circles can be properly spaced out). The delays at the junctions are bad enough as it is.
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Old March 18th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #5211
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Quote:
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Which presumably is why you often see Circle and H&C line trains running one after the other!
I'd be surprised if I'd see them running side by side
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Old March 18th, 2013, 11:52 PM   #5212
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That's the one

But that said, the alternative is hopeless (e.g. a queue of District Line trains approaching Gloucester Road or Tower Hill, waiting so the Circles can be properly spaced out). The delays at the junctions are bad enough as it is.
Can't the trains all just run to time FFS. What's worse is waiting at Mile End for 20 minutes for a H&C line train. Sort them out.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #5213
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I'd be surprised if I'd see them running side by side
On that note, has there ever been any serious proposals to build more tunnels/tracks for any parts of the Circle? would it be technically possible to do so? what about the flat junctions?
I'm guessing gettign rid of the flat junctions would be so expensive that when the need goes so dire that the politicians are willing to pay for it, it'd be a better buisness case to also four-track at least part of the Circle.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:42 PM   #5214
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On that note, has there ever been any serious proposals to build more tunnels/tracks for any parts of the Circle? would it be technically possible to do so? what about the flat junctions?
I'm guessing gettign rid of the flat junctions would be so expensive that when the need goes so dire that the politicians are willing to pay for it, it'd be a better buisness case to also four-track at least part of the Circle.
Two stretches were 4-track: King's Cross to Moorgate and High Street Kensington to Gloucester Road... I guess eventually they might have managed to complete the second circle, although there was never a cohesive plan to. I guess the immense further property destruction that would have been required in The City prevented this from ever happening, and having to dig up Euston / Marylebone Road again and somehow quadruple along the Embankment with The Thames just the other side of the wall made it pretty much impossible.

The only truly functioning stretch of 4-track left is King's Cross to Farringdon, with the additional tracks now NR Thameslink. The additional tracks between Farringdon and Moorgate recently closed to allow platform extensions at Farringdon. The additional tracks between High St Ken and Gloucester Road closed in the 1950's, and between Gloucester Rd and South Ken there are two westbounds but only one eastbound, so it's not proper quad track. There's also the interesting aborted stub of tunnel which was making its way towards Euston from St Pancras, I don't think it ever got any further west than Ossulston Street, so three blocks short of Euston. It was utilised in the end in the 1920's as an additional eastbound track, which was subsequently adapted to become the sole eastbound when the new relocated Circle platforms were opened at King's Cross St Pancras during WW2.

When it looked like cut & cover was never going to be the answer, Tube was investigated as the method of effectively quadrupling the Circle. A bill was deposited for deep-level Tube between West Kensington and Mansion House, which in fact ended up being partly used along with 2 other proposed Tube railways to fashion the Piccadilly Line. There was a proposal for the north side too, with Tubes from Edgware Road, which ultimately was replicated to an extent by the Bakerloo Line.

I know that Gloucester Road Junction was proposed to be grade separated as part of the pre-WW2 'New works' programme, but WW2 intervened and it came to nought. All that did happen in this era to ease the Circle Line operations was shifting Aldgate East station eastwards so that all three sides of the triangle at Aldgate could accommodate a train's length (the south and north curves were too short before this), as before this the congestion in the area was horrendous.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #5215
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Can't the trains all just run to time FFS. What's worse is waiting at Mile End for 20 minutes for a H&C line train. Sort them out.
While rolling stock and signal / track asset issues play their part, the customers... yes YOU... have a lot to answer for!

Obstructing doors, pulling passenger alarms, fainting because they're on a fad diet... all these sorts of 'minor' delays contribute to a circular Circle being unworkable.
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Old March 19th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #5216
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Those passengers should be culled.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #5217
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As an example, the circle line of the Madrid metro, wich is completly isolated of any other line, uses (or at least used) a system called SIRAT (Automated Train Regulation SYstem) to avoid the problems of deregulation. But this system it is a little bit .

The system, every time that a train loses time, stops all the other trains with red lights at the next station during the lost time. This means that if a train of the line loses 20 seconds, all the other trains of the line are stopped 20 seconds on their next stop. That causes that the interval between one train and the following it's always the same, so politicians are proud with their statistics and people is happy because the next train never needs more than 5 minutes to arrive.

The problem is that during your journey, in every station, you will lose any time that any other train of the line had lost. A 15 minutes journey becomes a 22 minutes journey. But acording to the polls people prefers longer travel times than longer waiting times.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 03:10 AM   #5218
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All that did happen in this era to ease the Circle Line operations was shifting Aldgate East station eastwards so that all three sides of the triangle at Aldgate could accommodate a train's length (the south and north curves were too short before this), as before this the congestion in the area was horrendous.
It would have been nice if they replaced the side platforms with an island, instead of keeping side platforms. Then the Circle line movement would be duplicated by a cross-platform interchange. Allowing either a removal of the Circle line, or doubling the service for one of the two unique stretches of line (the other being Gloucester Road - High Street Ken)
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Old March 20th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #5219
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As an example, the circle line of the Madrid metro, wich is completly isolated of any other line, uses (or at least used) a system called SIRAT (Automated Train Regulation SYstem) to avoid the problems of deregulation. But this system it is a little bit .

The system, every time that a train loses time, stops all the other trains with red lights at the next station during the lost time. This means that if a train of the line loses 20 seconds, all the other trains of the line are stopped 20 seconds on their next stop. That causes that the interval between one train and the following it's always the same, so politicians are proud with their statistics and people is happy because the next train never needs more than 5 minutes to arrive.

The problem is that during your journey, in every station, you will lose any time that any other train of the line had lost. A 15 minutes journey becomes a 22 minutes journey. But acording to the polls people prefers longer travel times than longer waiting times.
That is

That said, 'regulation' is common practice on LU lines, i.e. if there is an extended headway opening up then the train in front of it is held back a bit. This is because the train behind, with the extended headway will get later and later as its loading increases, a vicious circle.

Trains are also held in platforms when an incident kicks off to prevent the possibility of trains being held in tunnels.
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Old March 20th, 2013, 09:02 PM   #5220
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It would have been nice if they replaced the side platforms with an island, instead of keeping side platforms. Then the Circle line movement would be duplicated by a cross-platform interchange. Allowing either a removal of the Circle line, or doubling the service for one of the two unique stretches of line (the other being Gloucester Road - High Street Ken)
Yes, a missed opportunity really... The same goes for Tower Hill, as if you're waiting for a Barking train on the north side of the Circle (which can be a while!), it would be nice to just hop on the first Circle and cross-platform at Tower Hill to get an EB District (sods law whenever I've been in this situation, there seems to be a sudden deluge of Circle and Met trains).
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