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Old March 20th, 2013, 10:22 PM   #5221
sotonsi
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Yes, a missed opportunity really... The same goes for Tower Hill, as if you're waiting for a Barking train on the north side of the Circle (which can be a while!), it would be nice to just hop on the first Circle and cross-platform at Tower Hill to get an EB District (sods law whenever I've been in this situation, there seems to be a sudden deluge of Circle and Met trains).
Side platforms, rather than islands are even worse where there's no direct service - example par excellence being Rayners Lane.* At least now the timetable doesn't troll you and there's not normally a train of the opposite line in the platform next to you that you might just be able to make if you get over the top quick enough.

I can't see, post-deep tube, much purpose in the eastern circle connector, other than stopping it being 3 services/4 on the north side and 2/4 on the south side that need terminating in that area, rather than 2 and 1 respectively. It can't be that heavily used by passengers, especially for a zone-1 service, and creates a lot of havoc. If there was an island platform at Aldgate East, there may have been serious talk about removing it, so perhaps it's good that there isn't.

*Harrow-o-t-H and Acton Town, while the 'over the top' (with 'under the bottom' option at Harrow) interchanges are probably busier than at Rayners (certainly in Acton's case), don't seem as bad due to the impracticality of giving a flat interchange between the two directions, due to multiple tracks and the need to have islands between those tracks.
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Old March 22nd, 2013, 11:39 PM   #5222
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Yes, a missed opportunity really... The same goes for Tower Hill, as if you're waiting for a Barking train on the north side of the Circle (which can be a while!), it would be nice to just hop on the first Circle and cross-platform at Tower Hill to get an EB District (sods law whenever I've been in this situation, there seems to be a sudden deluge of Circle and Met trains).
Here's some old ideas of mine from an old discussion on these forums a few years back:
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 10:16 AM   #5223
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I can see that's the north side of the circle, but what would be the result of all that work? separate tracks for separate lines?


@Tubeman - thanks for that very informative answer to my last question. Many grat ideas have floated around for a long time, but I guess money is what it's all about in the end: it doesn't matter how great a plan is if there ain't money to back it up.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 02:18 PM   #5224
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Here's some old ideas of mine from an old discussion on these forums a few years back:
We can dream

I think it's ironic that we've had 'Crossrail' for almost 150 years... it was perfectly possible to run a train from Shenfield to Maidenhead via the Metropolitan Railway at one point (until the curve at Liverpool St was taken out, anyway). If the Met ever had been 4-tracked then we could have dreamt of a 'fast' connecting GWR and GER routes.

One idea I had was quadrupling Crossrail TCR to Farringdon. The Met Line coming down from Finchley Road would continue its south-easterly trajectory and burrow under the Circle at Baker Street with new lower level platforms there (and therefore the junction eliminated), then south-east to TCR with cross-platform interchange with Crossrail, a stop at Holborn, Farringdon (again cross-platform with Crossrail), then surface into the abandoned Widened lines tunnel to serve Barbican and terminate at Moorgate.

This would help ease the Baker Street to Liverpool Street section of the Circle Line no end, and improve reliability all round on the SSR lines.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 02:19 PM   #5225
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@Tubeman - thanks for that very informative answer to my last question. Many grat ideas have floated around for a long time, but I guess money is what it's all about in the end: it doesn't matter how great a plan is if there ain't money to back it up.
Sadly that's it. You do wonder too how developed the system would have become if two World Wars hadn't intervened, too.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #5226
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One idea I had was quadrupling Crossrail TCR to Farringdon. The Met Line coming down from Finchley Road would continue its south-easterly trajectory and burrow under the Circle at Baker Street with new lower level platforms there (and therefore the junction eliminated), then south-east to TCR with cross-platform interchange with Crossrail, a stop at Holborn, Farringdon (again cross-platform with Crossrail), then surface into the abandoned Widened lines tunnel to serve Barbican and terminate at Moorgate.

This would help ease the Baker Street to Liverpool Street section of the Circle Line no end, and improve reliability all round on the SSR lines.
Wouldn't it be better to connect to some NR line at Liverpool Street?
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Old March 25th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #5227
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It just becomes more of a faff then, all I really had in mind was maintaining the City terminus for the Met and re-using the Widened Lines to Moorgate... of course there's no reason why it couldn't proceed east to connect with an NR line, but then there's electrification incompatibility to take into consideration. I can't see there being much benefit to Met Line customers, having direct trains from Pinner or Croxley to London Fields or Clapton doesn't really seem worth the effort, as you lose the terminus at Moorgate as the line would have to be burrowing down to a very deep level by there to pass under the Northern Line tunnels (which are stacked on top of each other just south of Moorgate).

If anything, Fenchurch Street is a far more logical candidate for being at the 'other end', as all services use just 2 tracks so a Met - C2C crossrail could take over the entire C2C network. Amersham to Shoeburyness anyone?
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Old March 26th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #5228
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It just becomes more of a faff then, all I really had in mind was maintaining the City terminus for the Met and re-using the Widened Lines to Moorgate... of course there's no reason why it couldn't proceed east to connect with an NR line, but then there's electrification incompatibility to take into consideration. I can't see there being much benefit to Met Line customers, having direct trains from Pinner or Croxley to London Fields or Clapton doesn't really seem worth the effort, as you lose the terminus at Moorgate as the line would have to be burrowing down to a very deep level by there to pass under the Northern Line tunnels (which are stacked on top of each other just south of Moorgate).

If anything, Fenchurch Street is a far more logical candidate for being at the 'other end', as all services use just 2 tracks so a Met - C2C crossrail could take over the entire C2C network. Amersham to Shoeburyness anyone?
These plans are never about through journeys though, so I'm not sure why Croxley to Clapton gets a mention. It's just hooking up two terminating services to remove the need to terminate in zone 1.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #5229
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These plans are never about through journeys though, so I'm not sure why Croxley to Clapton gets a mention. It's just hooking up two terminating services to remove the need to terminate in zone 1.
Extending Watford (and some Uxbridge) Met and Lea Valley trains through zone 1 is useful not to link them up, but to distribute the traffic across zone 1.

AFAICS, the biggest benefit of the end-at-Moorgate scheme is not de-tangling the circle, but relief of the Jubilee line between Finchley Road and Bond Street with the Baker Street - Tottenham Court Road section of the new Met line. It seems rather expensive to do that. And Lea Valley Lines can be plugged into the 4-track section, with some trains through and some trains terminating at Barbican (or even Farringdon).

The problem with the SSLs is the triangles at Aldgate and Kensington. Even grade-separated, triangles struggle to work with high frequency.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 11:22 PM   #5230
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The problem with the SSLs is the triangles at Aldgate and Kensington. Even grade-separated, triangles struggle to work with high frequency.
Quite. My idealised solution to Aldgate is to send the District from Tower Hill up over the DLR alignment to Poplar thence up to Beckton and on to Grays via Dagenham Dock, with the Met running to Upminster, and Aldgate being a Circle-only station (i'd like the bays to be knocked through as well - but it's not essential). This removes the northern and southern triangle junctions at Aldgate.

At Kensington, terminate the District at High St Kensington or bore a new route for it from somewhere, rising up in the triangle sidings area before taking over the local branch. Tweak the flyovers west of Earls Court and the Wimbleware service can operate segregated via platforms 1 & 4 at Earls Court with the mainline using 2 & 3, as well shown by this chap here:
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Old March 28th, 2013, 11:52 PM   #5231
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Is the Circle line (especially the eastern part) really a good idea at all (at peak times)?

If the eastern part of the circle would be removed, all passengers who travel around the circle just because Monument is a bit closer than Liverpool Street station to their destination would be forced to change to get to their destination, and then they can just aswell change to bus.

I know there is a risk that theese passengers would use the central line Liverpool Street station - Bank or Norhtern line Moorgate-Bank, but that could probably be discouraged somehow.

If those passengers change to bus instead of traveling around the eastern end of the circle, capacity on the subsurface network would be freed.


So, in Tubemans example I'd remove Aldgate completely.

Or, even better, let the District go to Upminster like today but build a new tunnel under Commercial Road diverting the Metropolitan (and Hammersmith&City) to todays Fenchurch street NR lines. Interchange at Aldgate East.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #5232
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Tower Hill eastbound and Liverpool Street southbound are both busy on the Circle in the morning peak due to the railway stations. Bus wise there is the 11 and 23 from Liverpool Street towards Bank and Trafalgar Square with both routes already busy in the peaks. Old Broad Street can be a bit of a pain if there is a lorry unloading so journey times can be a bit uncertain.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #5233
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Ok, so a lorry ban on Old Broad Street in peak hours could be the solution?

Is it politically possible to reduce car and lorry traffic in that area?

The traffic on the eastern part of the circle is really a perfect evidence of the need for more cross city NR routes.

The distances here are rather short, shurely it must be far cheaper to for example link up todays lines to Liverpool Street St. with todays lines to Canon Street St (with one or both of theese stations having subterranian platforms like Crossrail 1 will have at Paddington) and an intermediate station.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #5234
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The Shenfield suburbans will be absorbed into Crossrail, though access journeys to Tower Hill and Blackfriars etc will still rely on the Circle Line. The bigger problem is Fenchurch Street, and Circle Line is really the only option for accessing other parts of the City and the northern termini.

As for road traffic - cars aren't really a problem for central London as there are fairly few of them during congestion charge hours of operation. Lorries and vans are more difficult - you can restrict loading hours to an extent without incurring too much cost to businesses.
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Old April 14th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #5235
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I was looking at an old tube map from the earlier part of the 20th century and noticed that what is now the Hammersmith and City Line once ran beyond Hammersmith on a chord that took the line westwards presumably on the same tracks as the District. It looks like a rather useful connection and was wondering if you could shed any light on why it ceased?

Ii seems to me that if such a service still existed it could take over a branch of the District to say, Richmond, simplifying District Line services overall and enabling more frequent trains to Ealing Broadway and Wimbledon. Is there any possibility of reinstating it and would it serve any useful purpose or would it cause more disruption due to what I presume would be another flat junction on the District Line?
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Old April 14th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #5236
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I was looking at an old tube map from the earlier part of the 20th century and noticed that what is now the Hammersmith and City Line once ran beyond Hammersmith on a chord that took the line westwards presumably on the same tracks as the District. It looks like a rather useful connection and was wondering if you could shed any light on why it ceased?
Because it wasn't very useful once the District line route opened.

It was part of the original route, which went Waterloo - Kenny O - Shepherds Bush (a different one) - Hammersmith Grove Road - Turnham Green - Richmond, though the GWR/Met did build a short chord and ran services to Richmond. Hammersmith & City route services ended in 1906 and the line from Kenny O to Ravenscourt Park closed fully in 1916.

The Central London Railway did think about, and got authorisation for in 1920, building a short chord from their Shepherd's Bush station to the LSWR track just west of their Shepherd's Bush station, and then go on to Richmond. They didn't build it, however.
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Ii seems to me that if such a service still existed it could take over a branch of the District to say, Richmond, simplifying District Line services overall and enabling more frequent trains to Ealing Broadway and Wimbledon.
Why would anyone at Richmond want a much longer journey into zone 1? Sure, the District/Piccadilly swap could happen, but at what cost to Richmond's services? There's better ways of removing Richmond from the District line - Crossrail chord to NLL is a cheap option; the Central Line is a bit more expensive, but is very possible and was proposed in the 90s (North Acton-Ealing Broadway going to the Bakerloo).
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Is there any possibility of reinstating it and would it serve any useful purpose or would it cause more disruption due to what I presume would be another flat junction on the District Line?
It would be grade-separated, but with the northern/town-bound pair of tracks.

There's a big building in the way too.
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Old April 20th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #5237
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Hey, guys...

I am sorry for asking this question here, but I really didn't know where is more appropriate to ask it...

So... How much would a 11 m wide, shallow, flat, cut-and-cover tunnel cost? Per km...
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Old April 20th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #5238
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I think it probably depends on where you want to build it to be honest. If it was, say, down Oxford Street in London it might be a tads more expensive that doing so in the middle of the fens for example.

Oh - and what sort of mud you're digging through...

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Old April 21st, 2013, 12:48 PM   #5239
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I am talking about flat empty land. About the soil, I really don't know, but i suppose it is ok, because there 10-floors buildings around it... i mean along it's path/way...
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Old April 21st, 2013, 08:49 PM   #5240
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In which country? (not that I'd have the answer regardless, but it might help someone else!)
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