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Old March 17th, 2006, 02:42 AM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
Tubey, great book! (Delayed response to me getting it)

Why are there only glass doors in the underground stations of the Jubilee line extension, and not Canning Town, etc. that are above ground? Will future underground stations be fitted with these too?
Yes I see your point... Why were PEDs (Platform edge doors) restricted to the tunnel stations on the JLE? It does seem a bit odd. Its almost as if people are only assumed to feel suicidal underground.

I suppose an aspiration would be for PEDs to be fitted on all platforms, but at the moment with mixed stocks serving platforms (or at least the potential) its physically impossible. At the moment a lot of the network is automatically ruled out:

Hammersmith-Ealing Common
Finchley Road-Amersham
Entire District & Circle lines except District beyond Barking

These all see routinely, or potentially, different stocks of trains (i.e. doors line up in different places)
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Old March 17th, 2006, 11:37 AM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
Yes I see your point... Why were PEDs (Platform edge doors) restricted to the tunnel stations on the JLE? It does seem a bit odd. Its almost as if people are only assumed to feel suicidal underground.
I thought the main reason for the PEDs was to cut out the piston effect of a train entering an underground station...?
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Old March 17th, 2006, 01:27 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP
I thought the main reason for the PEDs was to cut out the piston effect of a train entering an underground station...?
This is actually a very desirable effect, as its pretty much the only ventilation system we have! This is why the PED screen does not form a seal with the tunnel ceiling, so still allowing air circulation. This is also why tube trains have unaerodynamic flat fronts, to maximise the amount of air they push around the tunnels.
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Old March 17th, 2006, 10:02 PM   #524
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I just thought since Canning Town, West Ham, Stratford were built the same time as Canary Wharf, etc., it would've made sense to have them all fitted with PEDs.
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Old March 18th, 2006, 06:04 AM   #525
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because those stations are outdoors?
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Old March 20th, 2006, 04:26 AM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_storms
because those stations are outdoors?
This is the only difference between them, but I still see no logical reason why PEDs couldn't have been fitted at the overground JLE stations.

Does anyone know of any open air PEDs anywhere in the world?

The only possible explanation I can think of is that weather conditions (Rain or ice) can make braking performance unpredictable overground, and the Jubilee Line trains have little margin for error because of having to line up with the PEDs.
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Old March 20th, 2006, 05:26 AM   #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
This is the only difference between them, but I still see no logical reason why PEDs couldn't have been fitted at the overground JLE stations.

Does anyone know of any open air PEDs anywhere in the world?

The only possible explanation I can think of is that weather conditions (Rain or ice) can make braking performance unpredictable overground, and the Jubilee Line trains have little margin for error because of having to line up with the PEDs.
The Hong Kong MTR uses some sort of Platform Door at its open-air at grade stations at Sunny Bay and Disneyland Resort. Not too sure about weather conditions.

Tung Chung line train at Sunny Bay station (from the Hong Kong MTR thread):
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Old March 21st, 2006, 03:07 PM   #528
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Hello!

I've fallen for Shoreditch station and demand it stays open!

It's so hidden away, no wonder no one uses it!

Do you think the closure will be temp or long term?

Thank you!
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Old March 21st, 2006, 07:50 PM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstar
Hello!

I've fallen for Shoreditch station and demand it stays open!

It's so hidden away, no wonder no one uses it!

Do you think the closure will be temp or long term?

Thank you!
Shoreditch will be replaced by Shoreditch High Street (a little further to the North-West) during the first phase of the ELL extension.
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Old March 21st, 2006, 11:21 PM   #530
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Back to PEDs once more... Why are there no PEDs in non-JLE stations where they rebuilt the station, like London Bridge (Northern line) or Westminster (Circle and District lines?
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Old March 21st, 2006, 11:33 PM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
Back to PEDs once more... Why are there no PEDs in non-JLE stations where they rebuilt the station, like London Bridge (Northern line) or Westminster (Circle and District lines?
Cost. These doors cost £1million a platform, and for each of these stations you'd have to build entirely new doors for each stock of train - plus at Westminster different train configurations run on the same tracks.

I believe the one reason they weren't installed outside (apart from the weather one) was because the train side of the doors is actually quite ugly with the mechanisms on show, and it wasn't really aesthetically pleasing to be able to see these at Canning Town, West Ham and Stratford from outside the station (the only place you get a good look at the reverse side of the doors is at North Greenwich where there is a dual track).
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 12:13 AM   #532
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Why services are not numbered?

Line's names are historic, but the District Line has 6 destinations, like the DLR, and understand where a train goes from any map is impossible.

Same idea for the suburban railroads (why not like Germany?), with a lot of lines numbers help a lot.

Thank you and excuse me if this question has yet been posed.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 03:14 AM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Why services are not numbered?

Line's names are historic, but the District Line has 6 destinations, like the DLR, and understand where a train goes from any map is impossible.

Same idea for the suburban railroads (why not like Germany?), with a lot of lines numbers help a lot.

Thank you and excuse me if this question has yet been posed.
I agree, lines like the District, Northern and Metropolitan must be a nightmare for out-of-towners. I'd support fragmenting lines into their off-peak service patterns on the Tube map personally, there's no logic to the way the map is laid out at the moment. It will never happen though; the individual line identities and Beck's map are too iconic and there'd be riots if they were radically changed.

It's something I'd like to look at personally as a 'little project', but I'm a bit too busy at the moment.

As an example, the off-peak District Line operates as 5 discrete services:

Richmond - Upminster
Wimbledon - Upminster
Ealing - Tower Hill
Wimbledon - Edgware Road
Olympia - High Street Kensington

...And therefore logically should be shown as separate lines on the map.

What I was contemplating was making them 5 different shades of green on the map and numbered 'District 1', 'District 2' etc... But bear in mind that that would perhaps treble to total number of lines on the map and make it much 'busier'.

In answer to why... Its purely down to history and the way in which the network grew out of several independent railway companies.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 08:18 AM   #534
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I really don't think numbering is necessary or useful. If the names are too complicated, you can easily work with colours. Numbers would actually be quite confusing I think.
Tourists don't care much for terminating stations and where trains are going anyway: they stay in the centre of the city and it doesn't really matter whether their service goes to Wimbledon or Richmond.
Showing what District lines go where though, might be a good idea. But you would get so many colours on the map, I don't think that's really possible. Just changing Wimbleware (that'd be a good name ) and the Kensington shuttle to a separate line as you suggested would probably work much better.

It actually seems quite clear to me right now on the map, with the different services through Earl's Court separated.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 09:50 AM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek
I really don't think numbering is necessary or useful. If the names are too complicated, you can easily work with colours. Numbers would actually be quite confusing I think.
Tourists don't care much for terminating stations and where trains are going anyway: they stay in the centre of the city and it doesn't really matter whether their service goes to Wimbledon or Richmond.
Showing what District lines go where though, might be a good idea. But you would get so many colours on the map, I don't think that's really possible. Just changing Wimbleware (that'd be a good name ) and the Kensington shuttle to a separate line as you suggested would probably work much better.

It actually seems quite clear to me right now on the map, with the different services through Earl's Court separated.
That was chiefly because it used to look like trains ran from Richmond / Ealing to Edgware Road, which they don't.

I find numbering very reassuring on a foreign metro, it does make it very easily navigable. Numbers are universal after all, words are ok if you're used to Roman script, but if you only know Japanese, Chinese or Cyrillic then it must be bewildering.

Colours are even better, but if you have more than 10 or so lines you start getting into the realms of different shades of the same colour, which can become confusing (e.g. in London you can't say "take the blue line" as they could wind up on the Victoria, Piccadilly, Waterloo & City or DLR lines).

I think what might be optimal actually is separating out service patterns into separate lines on the map but keeping the traditional colours, then the terminal stations of each service highlighted on the map to draw the eye to the destinations. After all, on a 'numbered' system like Paris its not good enough knowing which line you want, you still need to know the destination to make sure you're going the right way.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 11:18 AM   #536
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A solution can be only place the number near the terminus and the junctions on the actual map, without adding a line for each service.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 12:31 PM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek
Showing what District lines go where though, might be a good idea. But you would get so many colours on the map, I don't think that's really possible.
I myself would be able to distinguish at least a few shades of green for the District services, but I'm sure some people already have problems keeping the colours separated properly, especially the colourblind.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 05:00 PM   #538
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Hello,

Is there ever going to be any expansion of Holloway Road station. When work commenced on the new Emirates Football Stadium there was talk of upgrading the station to make way for the extra 20,000 fans who will be comming into the area on match days.

I really do not think the station is capable of hosting the supporters especially only having 2 elevators and one very narrow spiral staircase.

With the station being close to the new stadium, stations like Arsenal will be less busy on matchdays with most travelling to either Drayton Park or Holloway Road.

Do you know of any future plans?

Thank You!
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 06:56 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstar
Hello,

Is there ever going to be any expansion of Holloway Road station. When work commenced on the new Emirates Football Stadium there was talk of upgrading the station to make way for the extra 20,000 fans who will be comming into the area on match days.

I really do not think the station is capable of hosting the supporters especially only having 2 elevators and one very narrow spiral staircase.

With the station being close to the new stadium, stations like Arsenal will be less busy on matchdays with most travelling to either Drayton Park or Holloway Road.

Do you know of any future plans?

Thank You!
None that I'm aware of... I think fans will be encouraged to use Finsbury Park station rather than Holloway Road. The only blessing is that the Emirates will be roughly in the middle of 3 stations; Arsenal, Holloway Road and Finsbury Park so hopefully people will disperse 3 ways depending on where they're going to. They should have built a platform for football trains really, a wasted opportunity considering the stadium is surrounded by railways.
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Old March 22nd, 2006, 09:17 PM   #540
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Tubeman,

what in your opinion do you think would follow on from any failure of the Crossrail bill? Would TfL focus attention on the Chelney as a standard tube gauge line? More light rail schemes? More buses perhaps?

Also, in your ideal world, what single thing would you do to the entire tube network to improve it?
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