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Old April 22nd, 2006, 07:17 PM   #561
Tubeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
Why are the sub surface lines so much slower than the deep level lines?
They aren't really, its an illusion because the tunnels are much tighter on the deep-level giving the sensation of higher speeds.

Trains on most lines typically do not exceed 30-35 mph between Central London stations, its actually the sub-surface which pick up a bit more speed as the stations are generally further apart (e.g. Kings Cross to Farringdon).
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Old April 22nd, 2006, 07:33 PM   #562
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Kings Cross to Farringdon is one of the ones I mean, it takes ages to get between those stops!

Is it maybe the acceleration and braking on the sub surface that makes them feel slower.

But you know this everyone says the circle/district/ham&shitty/metro/ are slow.

A friend of mine prefers to get on a central line train at Mile End to change at Liverpool St onto the circle, because its quicker than if they got the Ham & Shitty.

So are they nuts for doing that? It can't be all in ours heads?
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Old April 22nd, 2006, 11:03 PM   #563
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This might not be a question it's possible to answer. I know the current system has about 400km of lines. In the fantasy future map I keep seeing (the one including crossrail, DLR, and the stuff south of the river, how many kms of lines are there? In other words, how much extension is planned in kilometers?

Thanks!
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 02:22 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
Kings Cross to Farringdon is one of the ones I mean, it takes ages to get between those stops!

Is it maybe the acceleration and braking on the sub surface that makes them feel slower.

But you know this everyone says the circle/district/ham&shitty/metro/ are slow.

A friend of mine prefers to get on a central line train at Mile End to change at Liverpool St onto the circle, because its quicker than if they got the Ham & Shitty.

So are they nuts for doing that? It can't be all in ours heads?
The Central Line is exceptionally fast since it went ATO, acceleration and braking can be at maximum capacity and train can enter platforms much faster than a manual driver could dare to. Also the stations are on a 'hump' profile where the is an uphill gradient entering platforms to assist deceleration and a downhill leaving to assist acceleration. The exceptions with the Central are the torturous bends through The City and West of Shepherd's Bush.

If a driver 'goes for it' I think over 45 mph is possible between Kings Cross and Farringdon (downhill) which is far faster than the usual 30mph between most Central London stations. It takes a long time because its a long way.

The Sub-surface lines are 'slow' because of the flat junctions at places like Aldgate, Edgware Road, Gloucester Road, etc where trains sit it tunnels waiting for their 'turn' across the junction. The train performance is generally equivalent to the Tube stock of similar age.
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 03:15 PM   #565
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Will they ever spend the money on sorting out the Aldgate mess?

So would the sub surface lines, if fitted with the same technology as on the central line, could they conceivably go faster?

How could things be speeded up on those lines?
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 03:30 PM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
Will they ever spend the money on sorting out the Aldgate mess?

So would the sub surface lines, if fitted with the same technology as on the central line, could they conceivably go faster?

How could things be speeded up on those lines?
The stations can't be given a 'hump' profile without spending billions, but with new trains and automatic working speeds should improve.

The flat junctions are always going be a headache, probably the best option long-term would be to scrap the Circle Line and build a new one below in Tube.

Believe it or not Aldgate used to be worse until the 1930's when the triangle was remodelled. Before two sides of the triangle weren't long enough to accommodate a train so a train sitting on one side would obstruct the other side. This was solved by moving Aldgate East eastwards and running the District and H&C lines parrellel to each other for the length of the original station.
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 03:45 PM   #567
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Could you ever imagine them ever funding a deep level circle line?

But the thought of it, gets my juices going. It would be clean, efficient. Amazing.

I am going to start a campaign now!!!!
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 03:57 PM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
Could you ever imagine them ever funding a deep level circle line?

But the thought of it, gets my juices going. It would be clean, efficient. Amazing.

I am going to start a campaign now!!!!
I've already planned the route!

It doesn't precisely follow the current Circle Line, its designed to serve all the major termini.

King's Cross St Pancras
Angel
Old Street
Liverpool Street
Fenchurch Street / Tower Hill
London Bridge
Waterloo
Victoria
Knightsbridge
Lancaster Gate
Paddington
Baker Street
Euston
King's Cross St Pancras
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 03:57 PM   #569
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You are such a nerd tubey!
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 04:23 PM   #570
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Thanks... I think!
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 06:31 PM   #571
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Its ok, I have a hard time accepting my own nerd status. I am after all posting on an internet forum devoted to Skyscrapers!!!

Those in Nerd Houses......
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 09:46 PM   #572
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Related to the above point but why sometimes between Amersham and Finchley Road, do the trains go quite fast and other times quite slow? Will the trains speed up when the new stock comes in 2009?
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 10:39 PM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRS
Related to the above point but why sometimes between Amersham and Finchley Road, do the trains go quite fast and other times quite slow? Will the trains speed up when the new stock comes in 2009?
Different trains perform differently, but its largely down to the driver's whim. If you're right up the arse of the train in front you'll not bother going hell for leather... there's no point.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 07:08 PM   #574
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Bump... even if it's just so my question gets answered... =P
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Old April 27th, 2006, 07:57 PM   #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentigern
This might not be a question it's possible to answer. I know the current system has about 400km of lines. In the fantasy future map I keep seeing (the one including crossrail, DLR, and the stuff south of the river, how many kms of lines are there? In other words, how much extension is planned in kilometers?

Thanks!
408km > 425km (excluding Crossrail, DLR and trams)
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Old April 28th, 2006, 12:45 AM   #576
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Excellent... now if I may be so bold, what about are the lengths of 1) Crossrail 2) DLR and 3) the tram network?

If there info is somewhere easy to find, just point me in the direction and tell me to shut up...!
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Old April 28th, 2006, 12:50 AM   #577
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DLR is 31 km according to Wikipedia, Crossrail would be a 16 km tunnel newly built and upgrades to the system already there. I can't seem to find how much new track, not in a tunnel, would be built.
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Old April 28th, 2006, 05:11 AM   #578
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Mr. Tubeman, can a 4-lane tunnel (around 1.2 km long) for vehicles be also called a subway? Or does a subway only refer to underground railways?
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Old April 28th, 2006, 05:35 PM   #579
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Tubeman, could land value taxation (LVT) be used to finance the construction of new lines? When the Jubilee Line was extended through South London and the Docklands area some properties near the new stations increased in value by up to four times! These windfall gains for the few lucky property owners could have been taxed to help pay for the line's construction, as explained in the booklet "Taken for a Ride" by Don Riley, himself a property owner and developer in the area. Perhaps the building of new lines could even be self-financing using this method, meaning that their proponents would not have to go cap-in-hand to the government for funding from general revenue, but instead could say that the line would pay for itself, giving the scheme a greater chance of being approved by the bean counters.

To get an idea of what I mean, check out the following:
http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text89_p.html
http://www.labourland.org/in_the_new...w_approach.php

The opinions expressed are those of the authors, and although I don't agree with everything they say I believe that they make a valid case for using LVT to finance new lines. Indeed, new construction could be expedited by using this funding method.

What do you think?

Last edited by Jean Luc; April 28th, 2006 at 06:06 PM.
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Old April 29th, 2006, 01:52 AM   #580
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Impossible. It's only reasonable to assume land values increase when the line is a success by economic necessity, in which case it will be developed anyway, so land owners are most likely to try and complain in the hopes of getting compensation for the increased traffic/noise/crime/daffodils/lack-of-mojo.
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