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Old November 25th, 2005, 12:40 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoogbouw010
Great thread, thanks Mr. Tubeman.

Do tube drivers always wear an uniform?
If just plain clothes (like in Paris), would you like uniformed tube drivers?
Tube Drivers are all supposed to wear a uniform, and to be fair the vast majority do, but they'll often wear their own jackets or hats (against regulations) in the Winter.

The company has finally given up on their battle to make all drivers wear a shirt & tie, so they are now able to wear a uniform issue polo shirt instead.

Typically smartly attired station staff:

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Old November 25th, 2005, 12:44 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55
The clue is in the quote

Not where else is there...how do I get a job as a train driver on the mainline.


He said you have to work on the platform in the tube before you can be a driver....what about on the mainline...where would I go to train to be a drive!?
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Old November 25th, 2005, 01:13 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
Great idea Tubeman!!!

Bank also has toilets, and I think Oxford Circus too(?).

1) Will the Chelney line every happen, or any other underground line anytime soon? Maybe a Strand/Fleet Street line?
2) Why do underground stations that are closed on Sundays, weekends still have to be lit and slowed down for (ie Cannon Street Station on weekends)?
3) Why is there so much less underground presence south of the Thames. I've read that it's because of the soil, because of the mainline rail, because of the development of the northern side being more. What is it?
4) Would they ever split the Northern Line into two seperate lines like Bakerloo/Jubilee?
5) Would any closed stations ever reopen, like Mill Hill, Aldwych etc.?
6) What's the least used line?
7) How long will it be till the entire network is Handicap-accessible? Are there any stations where it's just impossible?
7) How do I get to Vauxhall station?
1) I sincerely doubt it, at least not as a Tube line, but the route of "Crossrail 2" basically follows the Chelney Line and would take SWT services (towards Waterloo) under London to connect with the lines ex-Liverpool Street in the Hackney / Clapton area. Let's wait and see if Crossrail 1 ever gets built first though

2)The platforms are lit, albeit subdued, purely to assist an evacuation. The reason why trains still have to slow down is slightly complicated and relates to the signalling...

I'll put it this way: when a train is stationary its rear is protected by a red signal behind it. Obviously, you don't want this red signal to be at the very rear, as if a train behind "SPADs" the signal (Passes it at Danger) then its going to run into the back of the stationary train as even though it will be automatically stopped it will take some distance to come to a halt. Therefore, beyond each signal is an "overlap" which is basically the distance it would take a train travelling at maximum speed to stop. To maximise the number of trains that can be fitted onto a stretch of line, the overlap beyond the signal at the end of platforms (the "Station Starter Signal") is very short, as the overlap is calculated assuming the train is going very slowly (<5mph) as it would be pulling away from the platform. When a station is closed, the train must slow to 5mph to pass the Station Starter Signal or there is a potential risk of collision if another train were stalled just outside the station.

Are you with me? Please don't make me draw diagrams!

3) Soil and mainline development. Much of South London is water-bearing alluvium (i.e. gravel) which is difficult to bore through as its unstable and waterlogged. The London Clay (which is a dream to bore through, soft and impervious to water) is mainly found north of the Thames. The South London alluvium is not impossible to tunnel through, but it requires tunnelling to take place at high pressure which is hazardous to workers (they need to be decompressed) and very expensive.

The other factor is main line development, which is basically due to London's location in the South-east corner of the UK. Railway companies operating into North London had their eyes on the goals of The Midlands, The North, Scotland and the West when they built their lines (into termini like Kings Cross, St Pancras, Euston and Paddington). They didn't care for suburban traffic which was labour-intensive, had a low return financially, and clogged up their trunk routes with slow trains and so built few suburban stations and provided poor services compared to their bread and butter, express "inter-city" trains. The railway companies running into south London (waterloo, London Bridge, Victoria) by definition had little in the way of long-distance inter-city traffic being closer to the sea and so concentrated on developing suburban traffic. South London was already covered in an impressive network of suburban railways before the first Tube Line was even built (ironically, in South London) and so the emphasis when the Tube network began growing in the 1900's was north of the river.

4) I'm not aware of any plans to do so, but personally I'm in favour of it. The only advantage is the flexibility of diverting Charing X trains via Bank and vice versa if there were to be a problem on either route, but this benefit is outweighed by the complexity of working trains through Camden and Kennington.

5) Mill Hill (East) is still open! Other stations that have been closed like Aldwych and Epping to Ongar were so lightly used that there's no justification for their re-opening. The only closed station that may re-open is York Road, between King's Cross and Caledonian Road on the Piccadilly Line, in connection with the King's Cross redevelopment.

6) Overall passenger numbers, the East London Line for sure. I'd assume that the waterloo & City, despite only having 2 stops and working 6 days a week, still manages to carry more passengers than the ELL. If we're talking about which trains are the emptiest, the District Line beyond Barking is very lightly loaded, as we run a train every 4-5 minutes all day out to Upminster and yet the route is paralleled by the C2C Main Line and most of the stations are in skanky chavscum land where no-one travels any further than the local Dole Office.

7) No such thing as impossible... I'd expect the full process to take decades, unless the government slaps some sort of deadline on TFL to speed up the process.

7 again?) Depends where you are mate...
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Old November 25th, 2005, 01:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddyk
Not where else is there...how do I get a job as a train driver on the mainline.


He said you have to work on the platform in the tube before you can be a driver....what about on the mainline...where would I go to train to be a drive!?
As a Guard first, on the routes that still have them (many suburban operators are driver-only now).

Most main Line companies poach each others' fully-fledged drivers which is what has been inflating their wages since privatisation (much cheaper than training up your own). GNER would have Guards, I'd have thought your nearest depot would perhaps be Peterborough. Just make some enquiries!
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Old November 25th, 2005, 01:28 AM   #45
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Absolutely facinating thread.

Thanks Tubeman for the effort you have been putting into your answers!
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Old November 25th, 2005, 01:40 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Absolutely facinating thread.

Thanks Tubeman for the effort you have been putting into your answers!
A pleasure... Keep 'em coming

BTW I have posted off the proof-read manuscript of my Railway Atlas to Ian Allan publishers, and the publication is now on course for February
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Old November 25th, 2005, 06:46 PM   #47
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A couple more questions Tubeman

1) Why does Harrow & Wealdstone have a note on the tubemap saying special fares apply for tickets to and from this station? What are the special fares.

2) There is news that the National Rail line from Watford to Euston will fall under Transport for London control in 2007. What does this mean for the average user? Is this the beginning of a consolidation of suburban services around London?

3) Why is there a diamond symbol after covent garden station on the tube map.

cheers...
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Old November 25th, 2005, 07:27 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
A couple more questions Tubeman

1) Why does Harrow & Wealdstone have a note on the tubemap saying special fares apply for tickets to and from this station? What are the special fares.

2) There is news that the National Rail line from Watford to Euston will fall under Transport for London control in 2007. What does this mean for the average user? Is this the beginning of a consolidation of suburban services around London?

3) Why is there a diamond symbol after covent garden station on the tube map.

cheers...
1) All Bakerloo Line stations between Queens park and Harrow & Wealdstone are owned by Network Rail, therefore their fares apply, not LU fares.

2) In connection to above, I presume then that LUL fares will apply out to Harrow & Wealdstone. Also I suspect that the slow Euston to Watford Jcn service will be withdrawn and the stations not served by the Bakerloo Line (South Hampstead and Kilburn High Road) may be closed. Therefore the Bakerloo Line could be extended to serve all stations to watford Junction for the first time since the 1980's, and exclusively so.

3) It probably relates to a footnote on the map; the station is exit only Saturday daytime because its so busy and only has lifts.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 07:32 PM   #49
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excellent thread this Tubeman.

With the DLR proving itself to be so efficient.

What are the chances that one day the Tube will have driverless trains?
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Old November 25th, 2005, 10:04 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim Flyer
excellent thread this Tubeman.

With the DLR proving itself to be so efficient.

What are the chances that one day the Tube will have driverless trains?
Technically the Victoria and Central Lines already are driverless, the 'driver' just opens and closes the doors before pushing 'go'. I think unstaffed trains on underground lines are unthinkable, and it is logical, as long as Tube trains are 6-8 unarticulated cars, for the member of staff to be in the front cab in case the ATO fails and they have to switch to manual mode.

Some of the stations on Tube Lines are very far apart (e.g. Bethnal Green > Liverpool St or Seven Sisters > Finsbury Park) and in the absence of any walkway I really don't think passengers would be happy boarding trains knowing they're on their own if anything goes wrong.

(I think) Ligne 14 in Paris has completey unstaffed trains, but they aren't that hot on staff there in the first place, and there are walkways alongside the trains in case of emergency.

The DLR 'Train Captain' walking around checking tickets, working the doors, and occasionally driving when the ATO fails, wouldn't work on the Tube as our trains are much longer, not articulated, and I certainly wouldn't fancy wandering around a late night train checking tickets without an armed guard. Probably the safest place for the single member of staff to be on an Automatic Tube train is locked away in the front cab... although personally I think having the 'glorified guard' in the back cab makes more sense, as they can watch the train safely out of the platform.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 11:20 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman

Richmond > N Woolwich has come & gone from the map in recent years. I think its included because it interchanges with a lot of Tube lines and is totally within London, plus its no real "competition" with any Tube line.
Hi Tubeman,

Different possibilities...

1) the kine started being shown on the London Underground map because former GLC (who had control of the Underground system) was paying money towards keeping the line open, and they wanted more people to know about it as it would make the line busier.

2) The line was like a well kept gem of a secret. It forms a potentially useful orbital service around part of London but was so under-publicised that few people knew it existed. Many people suspected that BR wanted it to die - soemthing which they acheived with teh section south of Dalston, only to saddle a younger generation with an added expense of reopening it as part of the East London Line Extension.

Despite being an electric railway it was one of the very few lines in London that in the early 1960's Dr Beeching wanted to close - and many pro-roads people looked upon the section between Dalston and Camden longingly - because being 4 tracks wide they saw a potential is converting it into a road!

Regards,

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Last edited by spsmiler; November 25th, 2005 at 11:26 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2005, 11:28 PM   #52
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Hi Tubeman,

Two platforms at one station in Loindon carried the London Underground platform signage but was fated to never be served by underground trains.

Do you know where this was?

Simon
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Old November 25th, 2005, 11:36 PM   #53
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why do all trains that go anywhere near aldgate/aldgate east have to stop and wait for ages for what seems other trains to get out of the way? Do they share one tunnel at that point?
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Old November 25th, 2005, 11:45 PM   #54
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Absolutely amazing thread - Tubeman, you're a genius!

As for a q:

1) What happened to the plans to rebuild Tottenham Court Road Station? Are they just waiting for Crossrail to do the work for them now?

2) I've read explanations elsewhere, but I still can't quite grasp it... Can you explain why abolishing the Circle Line is a good idea? And how would it operate and, more importantly, appear on the Diagram in a way we can all understand?

Many thanks in advance!
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:09 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRS
Hmm that would be quite good as I live in Chesham and the chiltern line trains are so much nicer than the underground ones. I'll often wait for a chiltern line train because of the difference in how comfortable it is and the great heaters.
Ha!

Thats because the trains on the Metroplitan Line come from the 1960's, when things were more utilitarian.

The older compartment trains were better - and offered more seats per train.

Just wait until you get the new S stock trains - there will be a significant reduction in the number of seats and although London Underground claim that they will run trains more frequently to make up for the shortfall experience on the mainline railway (with Virgin Cross Country) proved that this solution can cause congestion (ie: traffic jams, for trains). As it is the junction at Baker Street where the Metropilitan Line trains join the Circle Line is operating at maximum capacity - otherwise they would be running more trains already! Even with new signalling they wont be able to trains more frequently, because then they will risk platforms becoming overloaded as more pasengers try to enter / leave the stations than the steps can cope with.

The transport officials will say that they must have fewer seats to make space for wheelchairs, as reqiuired by law, but as experience on the buses and mainline railways already shows there is no need for every single doorway to be wheelchair accessible. I would much rather see the solution adopted by the Danes on new trains for the Copenhagen S-Bahn being copied here too - plenty of seats within the main part of the train (they use 3 + 3 transverse seats; for London the present day 2 +3 should be retained) but the carriages next to the driving compartments have longitudinal seating along the inside edge of the trains as this leaves plenty of space for wheelchairs, push chairs, etc. Traditionally the train ends are emptier anyway.


Copenhagen S Bahn train


Inside view showing the inter-carriage walk-through feature, see-through anti-draught internal screens (with powered sliding doors) and spacious 3+3 transverse seating.


The end carriages on each train feature fold-up longitudinal seating, space for wheelchairs & pushchairs and even bicycle hoops.




3+2 high back seats on the Metropolitan line.



btw; until the late 1950's / early 1960's mainline trains from Marylebone used to share services with the Metropolitan Line to both Chesham and Watford. The project to convert the tracks between Harrow-On-The-Hill and Moor Park from 2 to 4 tracks (fast and slow) included changes which meant that Watford could only be reached by slow (all stations) trains, and that the mainline trains from Marylebone could only use the fast tracks.

Electric trains only reached Chesham in the early 1960's (until then they were all steam trains) and as part of a process which also saw the Metropolitan trains discontinuing services to Aylesbury the mainline trains stopped serving Chesham.

Ironically, one of the reasons for converting the line to 4 tracks was to reduce delays caused to fast trains by all stations trains. In those days the mainline fast trains traveleld to Manchester via Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester, Rugby and Aylesbury. Nowadays only freight trains travel beyond Aylesbury, although because of new housing estates there is a good case for restoring the route to passenger trains. As an aside the line between manchester and Sheffiedl was Britain's first InterCity mainline overhead wire electric railway; they even buiult a new tunnel through the mountains - yet that too is closed. Why? politics, I suppose - and that until the mid 1980's the railways were mostly run by civil servants who were more interested in their own career than people for whom the railway was "in their blood".

Simon
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:19 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
why do all trains that go anywhere near aldgate/aldgate east have to stop and wait for ages for what seems other trains to get out of the way? Do they share one tunnel at that point?
1) The tracks are heavily congested.

2) The timetable works by creating gaps in the District Line service which Circle Line trains fill on the section west of Aldgate and Hammersmith & City trains fill east of Aldgate.

3) Circle Line trains are timetabled to spend a short-ish time at Aldgate because they can wait there without delaying other trains - and it also gives them some "recovery" time in case there is a delay and they are running late.

Allthough it may seem otherwise the trains are precision timetabled.

As a schoolboy i travelled through that area very frequently (especially on eastbound Hammersmith & City trains), and untill I learnt why was allways very annoyed when I would see two or three District Line trains go by and enter Aldgate East whiilst we just sat there.

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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:20 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
Hi Tubeman,

Two platforms at one station in Loindon carried the London Underground platform signage but was fated to never be served by underground trains.

Do you know where this was?

Simon
Highgate High Level?
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:22 AM   #58
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Quote:
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Highgate High Level?
YUP!!!

spot on!
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:35 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
why do all trains that go anywhere near aldgate/aldgate east have to stop and wait for ages for what seems other trains to get out of the way? Do they share one tunnel at that point?
The area is a triangular junction, I've heard the busiest on the planet, but don't quote me on that. You have through District Line trains on the South side, through Hammersmith & City Line trains on the North side, and through Circle Line trains on the east side plus terminating Metropolitan Line services.

If the junctions were worked to timetable, there'd be a hopeless mess of congestion, so the signalling works on "First Come" basis, for example if a District and Hammersmith & City train approach Aldgate East simultaneously whichever train passes a certain signal first is given priority (I could go into more detail, but it would take hours!). This means that whichever train loses the race has to wait for the other to be routed in front, hence the dallying in tunnels in that area (also at signal OP38 between Paddington Circle and Edgware Road, in the Baker St area and at Gloucester Road EB).

Whilst Tube lines generally have 'flying' junctions, the Sub Surface have 'flat' junctions where, for example, an eastbound District train approaching Gloucester Road can be delayed waiting for a Westbound Circle train to cross its path. Such conflicting moves are removed by 'flying' junctions, such as at Camden Town, Leytonstone, Kennington, North Acton etc on the 'Tube' lines.

As an interesting aside, the Aldgate/ Aldgate East area used to be much worse; the North and South sides of the triangle used to be much shorter and couldn't accommodate a train's length meaning the queues of trains approaching the area were terrible. In the 1930's Aldgate east station was relocated a couple of hundred yards Eastwards allowing the District and Hammersmith & City Lines to run parallel pairs of tracks through the old site of the station and therefore a train could wait on one side of the triangle without the rear fouling another junction.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:37 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
YUP!!!

spot on!
I worry myself... I really do

Ian Allan reckon my atlas will be out in February... watch this space!
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