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Old June 12th, 2006, 06:15 PM   #621
e-strider
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Tubeman, how do you find the MRT (Subway) system in Singapore.. ?
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Old June 13th, 2006, 01:13 AM   #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-strider
Tubeman, how do you find the MRT (Subway) system in Singapore.. ?
Deliciously cold (had to endure a wonderful journey home tonight in an oven-like District Line train... it was 32C outside so god forbid how hot it was inside).

I liked the way that all tickets were smartcards and that you paid a deposit to cover their cost... I wish London would take this approach and do away with paper tickets for good.

Otherwise; simple, efficient, clean.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 01:17 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Justme
@Tubeman.

I'll be back in London in August for a week or two, and as I visit so frequently, I was wondering, should I get a Oyster Card. It would save me a bit of money I think even over just a week. That is of cause if it costs to get one initially. (???)

Can I get an Oyster card despite my address being in Germany? The online webpage only allows UK postcodes.

Can I use one Oyster Card for two people. i.e. swipe it once when passing a gate, and then handing it over for the 2nd person to swipe?

cheers.
I'm not a ticketing expert, not least because I never have to buy one! I'd ask the Other half, but he's gone to bed.

Regarding sharing an Oyster, that's not possible as each journey needs to be 'resolved', i.e. you need to touch in and touch out of the system otherwise the next time you go to use it you wont be let through the barriers due to an 'unresolved journey'. The cards themselves are (I think) free... so its no drama having one each.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 11:31 AM   #624
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Thanks Yako and Tubeman. I have been reading up on the Oyster cards but I still have some things that perplex me.

They talk about single fares and price capping, and season tickets (like the 7 day pass). From what I understand single tickets work as expected, and if the price reaches the level of say a day pass it's capped. Fine.

Then why would anyone want a 7 days pass on Oyster. You're forced to pay the full price whether you use it or not.

From what I understand, I can do it this way. Organize an Oyster Card for Heathrow, and get a 7 day travel pass for zones 1-2. That's a pretty fair price at £22. However, at Heathrow I would need an extension to zone two, so would this be a single fare swipe of the Oyster at £1.80? (that is a single zone 6 to zone 3 fare) How is this added? Do I pay extra into the Oyster above my 7 day travel pass before I can use it this way, or am I billed later?

Also, if during the week I want to visit say Kew Gardens in Zone 4, would I need two single tickets for zones 3-4? (£1 each way) to add to my zone 1-2 travel pass. If the price of the 7 day travel card (for a single day) plus the two extra tickets tops the cost of a single day travel card for zone 1-4, will it be capped there?

If I have to top up the Oyster card, can I reclaim the money back when I leave London, or do I just keep it for when I visit again. No probs for me, but my partner doesn't visit London as much as I do.

Year, a lot of questions. But it does seem a very good deal if only I could grasp it ;O)

Or, at the end, would it just be cheaper to chuck 20quid into the Oyster and see if it comes under the zone 1-2 Oyster Travel pass for 7 days?
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Old June 13th, 2006, 12:13 PM   #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Thanks Yako and Tubeman. I have been reading up on the Oyster cards but I still have some things that perplex me.

They talk about single fares and price capping, and season tickets (like the 7 day pass). From what I understand single tickets work as expected, and if the price reaches the level of say a day pass it's capped. Fine.

Then why would anyone want a 7 days pass on Oyster. You're forced to pay the full price whether you use it or not.

From what I understand, I can do it this way. Organize an Oyster Card for Heathrow, and get a 7 day travel pass for zones 1-2. That's a pretty fair price at £22. However, at Heathrow I would need an extension to zone two, so would this be a single fare swipe of the Oyster at £1.80? (that is a single zone 6 to zone 3 fare) How is this added? Do I pay extra into the Oyster above my 7 day travel pass before I can use it this way, or am I billed later?

Also, if during the week I want to visit say Kew Gardens in Zone 4, would I need two single tickets for zones 3-4? (£1 each way) to add to my zone 1-2 travel pass. If the price of the 7 day travel card (for a single day) plus the two extra tickets tops the cost of a single day travel card for zone 1-4, will it be capped there?

If I have to top up the Oyster card, can I reclaim the money back when I leave London, or do I just keep it for when I visit again. No probs for me, but my partner doesn't visit London as much as I do.

Year, a lot of questions. But it does seem a very good deal if only I could grasp it ;O)

Or, at the end, would it just be cheaper to chuck 20quid into the Oyster and see if it comes under the zone 1-2 Oyster Travel pass for 7 days?
You can put £10 on to your oyster card AND have a 7-day pass for Zones 1-2 at the same time. This way you don't have to worry about buying paper extension tickets.

You'll be charged from Heathrow (Zone 6) to Zone 2 on your first journey - everything else in Zone 2 to Zone 1 will be covered by your 7 day pass. Likewise, if you go to Kew Gardens (zone 4) from Zone 1 you will only be charged for the bit your 7-day pass doesn't cover.

As for value in terms of putting on say £20 at the beginning of the trip vs. 7-day pass, well that really depends on how much travelling you intend to do. A 7 day pass is worth the money if you intend to make many journeys each day - it also allows you to use overground trains (in the zones you buy) without any additional cost. You cannot not use Oyster Prepay on Overground Trains.

I think the best approach to take would be to put on £20 and have a 7-day pass. Any of the £20 you don't use can always been used again on a later visit to London. I'm not sure about reclaiming money however on your partners card. I'd presume that you could get a refund - if not a transfer on to your card.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 12:37 PM   #626
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^ thanks for that sarflonlad, that really makes it a bit more clear. Odd though that an extension from a zone 1-2 travel card to somewhere in zone 4 requires a 2-4 ticket - since I already pay for the zone 2 in the travel card. Still, it's not too bad in price.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 01:33 PM   #627
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Hey, I was always wondering how the zones of London came to be arranged as they are.

Does a zone specify the travelling distance towards Central London?

I'm asking because it seems like some neighbourhoods get a raw deal. Ealing Broadway is 12.4km from the centre, and in Zone 3, yet Woolwich and Wembley are the same distance away and in Zone 4.

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Old June 13th, 2006, 01:38 PM   #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
Regarding sharing an Oyster, that's not possible as each journey needs to be 'resolved', i.e. you need to touch in and touch out of the system otherwise the next time you go to use it you wont be let through the barriers due to an 'unresolved journey'.
There have been a few times when I've forgotten to tap in at one station (often the gates are left open on the stations round here) and it's let me out at another station. It just bleeps many times, but none of the staff seem to care.
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Old June 13th, 2006, 07:57 PM   #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
^ thanks for that sarflonlad, that really makes it a bit more clear. Odd though that an extension from a zone 1-2 travel card to somewhere in zone 4 requires a 2-4 ticket - since I already pay for the zone 2 in the travel card. Still, it's not too bad in price.
Sorry, you're quite right to think that's odd. You'd only need a 3-4 extension - that's £1 off-peak (vs. £3.00 cash fare!).

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06.pdf#page=12 lists oyster fares and tickets. There's a lot of information there though!
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Old June 16th, 2006, 03:27 PM   #630
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Hi Tubeman

What does it exactly mean there is a "signal fault"? Is it just one signal has gone out or lots of them? They seem to happen all the time, is it the machines age, over use, heat? I know the London Underground is extremely busy but why so many, cause in other Metros around the world which i have used several times over many weeks... dont seem to have the same problem... Im guessing its their age?

Secondly the Central Line stock, are any of them air-conditioned? A friend and I were on one a few weeks ago at around 11 at night and we could of sworn that the air coming out from behind the seats was really cold, no we hadnt had a drink either.

Finally who owns the stations? Can you find out when projects are due to be completed in stations or what future plans there are for them? In particular i was interested in Mile End it seems to be missing all its ceiling panels on the platforms, strange?

Thanks

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Old June 16th, 2006, 07:30 PM   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishcatdogbird
Hi Tubeman

What does it exactly mean there is a "signal fault"? Is it just one signal has gone out or lots of them? They seem to happen all the time, is it the machines age, over use, heat? I know the London Underground is extremely busy but why so many, cause in other Metros around the world which i have used several times over many weeks... dont seem to have the same problem... Im guessing its their age?

Secondly the Central Line stock, are any of them air-conditioned? A friend and I were on one a few weeks ago at around 11 at night and we could of sworn that the air coming out from behind the seats was really cold, no we hadnt had a drink either.

Finally who owns the stations? Can you find out when projects are due to be completed in stations or what future plans there are for them? In particular i was interested in Mile End it seems to be missing all its ceiling panels on the platforms, strange?

Thanks

FCDB
I answered the ins and outs of a Signal Failure earlier in this thread, here.

Age and poor maintenance is a factor, but also many more modern systems don't use the old-fashioned ATP system we do (track circuits and tripcocks / trainstops), ATO is less prone to failure, but when it goes, it goes big time.

The Central Line 1992 stock don't have air con per se, but I think the air blasted out behind the seats is slightly cooled somehow (I could be wrong)

LUL owns almost all of the stations (a few are owned by Network Rail), many are being refurbished through the PPP contracts, I'm guessing Mile End is in the process of being refurbished.
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Old June 17th, 2006, 09:03 PM   #632
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In between Stratford and Mile End, in each tunnel, are painted white rings which denote the position of an emergency exit called the Old Ford Fan Shaft. You'd have to be looking for them these days, but they appeared very bright in the 1950's. But where on the surface does that exit emerge. Can it be seen from the DLR?

Secondly, what train formation will be used for the Chesham branch when the S stock is introduced. There has been no mention of 4 car formations.

And finally, maybe the panels in the false ceiling at Mile End were removed following the report into the fire at Kings Cross - that was the reason for removing ceiling panels at some other locations.
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Old June 18th, 2006, 07:02 PM   #633
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With regards to Canary Wharf, what is happening with the toilets there? And have they built up a little cell to search people next to the escalators? Also, the escalator refurbishment program seems to have stopped, with one escalator still covered up, but no work seems to have happened in a few months? Who organises these projects, and are their timelines made public (probably not)?
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Old June 18th, 2006, 10:22 PM   #634
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^
I'm afraid I'll have to pass on all of those... except speculating that Chesham will be served by a 4-car (or even 3-car?) S Stock unit off-peak and 8-car through trains during the peak.
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Old June 19th, 2006, 11:48 PM   #635
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You can find out from Metronet which stations they are refurbishing here :
http://www.metronetrail.com/default....=1077110873406
it says "This is due to be completed in 2007." for mile end.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 05:59 PM   #636
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Hi, I have some question:

1) Why Shoreditch on the East London line is served only during rush hours?
2) I know the origin of the Waterloo & City line, until 1993 a "normal" railway, so why it has no track connection with other lines. Are there project to connect it with one of the nearby lines? Now, how can the trains be placed ont tracks? maybe the depot has a link to normal roads? Somebody has a track map of this line?
3) Building one or two intermediate stations on the Waterloo and City line would be useful, or this area is yet well covered by other (bus) lines?
4) What are the lines (or group of) without track conenction with the others?
5) Between Backer Street and Liverpool Street how many tracks there are?

Thank you very much for any reply!
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Old June 20th, 2006, 06:48 PM   #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Hi, I have some question:

1) Why Shoreditch on the East London line is served only during rush hours?
2) I know the origin of the Waterloo & City line, until 1993 a "normal" railway, so why it has no track connection with other lines. Are there project to connect it with one of the nearby lines? Now, how can the trains be placed ont tracks? maybe the depot has a link to normal roads? Somebody has a track map of this line?
3) Building one or two intermediate stations on the Waterloo and City line would be useful, or this area is yet well covered by other (bus) lines?
4) What are the lines (or group of) without track conenction with the others?
5) Between Backer Street and Liverpool Street how many tracks there are?

Thank you very much for any reply!
1) Well it's closed now, but it simply didn't have enough passengers. I't did open up on Sunday morning for the market. The new station will have normal opening hours.
2) The W&C has no links to the rest of the railway anymore. There used to be one at Waterloo station, but it has been removed during the construction of the Eurostar terminal there. Trains are moved in and out using a crane in case they need to be. There is a small little depot as well.
3) I think the line works very well as a shuttle.
4) I'm not sure if I understand this one. No track sharing? Victoria, Central, East London Line and the W+C? Maybe the Picc does share east of Earl's Court? West of that it's four tracked I think.
5) Two I'm afraid.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Hi, I have some question:

1) Why Shoreditch on the East London line is served only during rush hours?
2) I know the origin of the Waterloo & City line, until 1993 a "normal" railway, so why it has no track connection with other lines. Are there project to connect it with one of the nearby lines? Now, how can the trains be placed ont tracks? maybe the depot has a link to normal roads? Somebody has a track map of this line?
3) Building one or two intermediate stations on the Waterloo and City line would be useful, or this area is yet well covered by other (bus) lines?
4) What are the lines (or group of) without track conenction with the others?
5) Between Backer Street and Liverpool Street how many tracks there are?

Thank you very much for any reply!
1) Worse than that, it closed forever earlier this month (to allow the northward extension of the East London Line). It will be replaced in 2010 by Shoreditch High Street station, more conveniently located at the bottom end of the high street. It never received any significant traffic, most customers would disembark at Whitechapel to change onto the District Line.

2 & 3) The W&C Line was only 'normal' insofar as it was owned by British Rail; this was a curious throwback to the fact it was built by the London & South-Western Railway to connect their Waterloo terminus with The City of London. It was otherwise built exactly like the other deep-level 'Tubes' of its era like the Central London Railway (=Central Line) and City & South London railway (=Northern Line). The only real difference was the fact it used 3rd Rail electrification unlike the Underground's standard 4th.

It was never connected to the Mainline because it has therefore Tube-sized tunnels, which would probably not even accommodate half the height of a Mainline train. I would be interested to know however if it was physically possible for the old (pre-1993) W&C Line stock to run over the Southern region Mainline tracks under their own power... they may well have been!

It is pointless connecting the W&C line to any other lines as the platforms at Waterloo and Bank only accommodate 4-car trains, so its at capacity as a 2-station shuttle. connecting it to another line or adding more stations would be very costly with little additional benefit. The line passes directly under Blackfriars and Mansion House stations, but as interchange with the District Line is afforded at Bank / Monument I suppose this really would be of minimal value.

The trains are hoisted a car at a time from the depot under Waterloo station to street level; the lift brought them out by the sidings which used to exist on the north side of the Mainline station, but these were cleared away to build the Eurostar terminus. The cars used to be transported away by rail, but now they have to go by low-loader (I had the shock of seeing a W&C line car whizzing past me on the A4 a few months ago!).

4) The Waterloo & City Line is the only isolated line. Off the top of my head the connections are as follows:

Victoria - Piccadilly at Finsbury Park
Northern - Piccadilly at King's Cross
Bakerloo - Jubilee at Baker Street
Jubilee - Metropolitan at Wembley Park and Finchley Road
Central - Metropolitan via West Ruislip Depot
Piccadilly - Metropolitan at Rayners Lane
Piccadilly - District between Barons Court and Ealing Common

The Sub-surface lines (Metropolitan, District, Hammermsith & City, Circle and East London Lines) interconnect at many locations: Edgware Road, Aldgate East, Gloucester Road, Whitechapel etc... They can be better considered as a single railway system.

5) Only 2... even though 3 different lines are shown on the Tube map!

The First Capital Connect (formerly Thameslink) runs a parallel 2-track tunnel between Kings Cross and Moorgate, although there are no longer any connections between the two. The Farringdon to Moorgate section will have to be abandoned when the platforms are lengthened at Farringdon for Thameslink 2000 (2006 and still waiting!), although I'm unsure if they'd bother converting the redundant tunnel into an additional pair of Metropolitan / Circle / H&C tracks... personally I can't see much benefit apart from perhaps having 'fast' trains non-stopping at Barbican.
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Old June 20th, 2006, 08:57 PM   #639
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Has Thameslink changed its name?

I wish someone would let me loose on London's transport. All these anomolies and exceptions would be cleared.

Tubey, even in newly refurbished stations, the lighting is still terrible, whats that all about?
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Old June 20th, 2006, 09:26 PM   #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
Has Thameslink changed its name?

I wish someone would let me loose on London's transport. All these anomolies and exceptions would be cleared.

Tubey, even in newly refurbished stations, the lighting is still terrible, whats that all about?
Yes, Thameslink are no more as of April Fool's day. First were in such a hurry to obliterate Thameslink's existence many of the trains had stickers crudely placed over 'Thameslink', or the lettering buffed off revealing bare metal. It obviously didn't occur to them that their 'First' trains still call at stations named King's Cross Thameslink, City Thameslink, West Hampstead Thameslink etc!

Re: sorting the transport out... I this is TFL's long-term aim; assimilating all suburban rail under the TFL umbrella (along with the Tube and buses). Oyster cards, more unity in branding, and I presume the development of of certain cross-London routes to supplement the Tube network.

Re: Lighting... I don't see the problem, really. Stations are bright enough for their purpose, and I certainly find the average New York subway platform far gloomier than the average Tube platform. Are there any stations is particular you think aren't bright enough?

Bear in mind the effect on a driver's eyes of entering a bright platform after a couple of minutes in pitch blackness, its safer to have the lighting a bit subdued (this is also why flash photography is banned, as drivers are temporarily blinded if an unwitting tourist takes a flash photo of the front of the train as it enters the platform).
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