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Old June 20th, 2006, 11:06 PM   #641
Coccodrillo
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It is pointless connecting the W&C line to any other lines as the platforms at Waterloo and Bank only accommodate 4-car trains, so its at capacity as a 2-station shuttle. connecting it to another line or adding more stations would be very costly with little additional benefit.
Thank you very much.

A connection would be useful to bring the trains out of the line to a bigger workshop, but, as you said, "connecting it to another line would be very costly with little additional benefit".

Quote:
5) Only 2... even though 3 different lines are shown on the Tube map!personally I can't see much benefit apart from perhaps having 'fast' trains non-stopping at Barbican.
Perhaps it could reduce delays on a (probably) busy route. What is the headway of trains on this line, actually?

The Underground (Tube & Sub Surface lines) are still connected with the British rail network? And with the DLR (with this, I think no)?

Another new question: on all maps there is always shown a traditional rail line (Richmond on the District line to North Woolwich), why only these? Is it the only line integrated with London's tarif zones?
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Old June 20th, 2006, 11:13 PM   #642
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A lot of the ones in central London are pretty dark. It is the level of lighting that contributes to the feeling of decay and general decline. Think how well lit shops are in comparison to Piccadilly, Oxford circus, or Leicester Sq.

In these stations on the platform there is only one source of light. There isn't any on the platforms. I have a solution for the blinded driver, get rid of the drivers altogether!!! Then the money raised from our extortionate fares could be spent on improving the service rather than the RMT's coffee mornings.!
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Old June 21st, 2006, 08:24 AM   #643
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Hell, I like the subtle lighting on the stations. They are certainly bright enough for me, but not too bright. I studied lighting for a while, and the lights on the underground are perfect for their purpose.

Shop lighting is a big issue. Sometimes they are far too bright, especially the cheap chains. You can usually tell the difference between the twobit stores and the quality ones. The quality stores are less bright, but with higher quality downlights.

Are you a ceiling light person at home, or a lamp person at night? I hate ceiling lights and never linger in a home which has them on - it's just too uncomfortable for me! Funny enough, there is also a class distinction with home lighting as well. Lower working class homes often light up their houses with bright ceiling lights in a failed attempt to turn night into day. Lower Middle Class and above (and some upper Working Class) usually opt for lamps (this was also pointed out by an anthropologist friend of mine).
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Old June 21st, 2006, 11:47 AM   #644
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I have both, I have recessed lights and lamps. I turn the lamps on as the evening turns into night. Its a psychological thing I do, to encourage me to go to bed. Otherwise if I have my ceiling lights on I tend to stay awake.

But darker places put a greater strain on the eyes. Good lighting contributes to a sense of safety. I don't think it would take much, but a few more lights, would actually have a massive affect on how people perceive the underground.
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Old June 21st, 2006, 09:03 PM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
Thank you very much.... ...Perhaps it could reduce delays on a (probably) busy route. What is the headway of trains on this line, actually?

The Underground (Tube & Sub Surface lines) are still connected with the British rail network? And with the DLR (with this, I think no)?

Another new question: on all maps there is always shown a traditional rail line (Richmond on the District line to North Woolwich), why only these? Is it the only line integrated with London's tarif zones?
Baker Street to Liverpool Street will have trains approximately every 2 minutes, although headways will vary between 1 and 4 minutes normally.

Connections with the Network Rail system are at West Ruislip (Central Line), Gunnersbury to Richmond (District Line), East Putney and Wimbledon (District Line), and Amersham to Harrow-on-the Hill (Metropolitan Line) which is owned by LUL and shared by Chiltern Railways. There were once many more connections, but these have been slowly eliminated over the years.

The DLR is, like the Waterloo & City Line, completely isolated

The 'North London Line' was promoted in the mid-1980's by the then GLC, who financed the building of new stations like Homerton, Hackney Wick and Dalston Kingsland. It made it onto the Tube map as it was a useful route across London avoiding the central area whilst interchanging with many Tube lines. It was recently removed, but will probably re-appear now that TFL control the Silverlink Metro franchise.
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Old June 21st, 2006, 09:07 PM   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
A lot of the ones in central London are pretty dark. It is the level of lighting that contributes to the feeling of decay and general decline. Think how well lit shops are in comparison to Piccadilly, Oxford circus, or Leicester Sq.

In these stations on the platform there is only one source of light. There isn't any on the platforms. I have a solution for the blinded driver, get rid of the drivers altogether!!! Then the money raised from our extortionate fares could be spent on improving the service rather than the RMT's coffee mornings.!
I still don't see it, sorry... I find Tube stations quite bright and welcoming, I certainly think the 'decay and decline' thing is a bit harsh.

As to your other point, are you telling me you'd happily get onto an unstaffed train?
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Old June 21st, 2006, 11:15 PM   #647
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I don't mind getting on the DLR. If the technology is there for driverless trains, I don't see why we don't use them. I think it would be great to have the Tube being innovative again, breaking ground.

I really do think lighting is important, it is the same as dark and dank pedestrian subways, or poorly lit areas always contribute to general gloominess. Its not so much stations that bother me, but platforms.

Do you think there will ever be an entirely new tube line?
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 08:16 AM   #648
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I still really don't see what you mean by dark stations. The lighting seems fine by me:



Some, like Baker Street Station are dimmer, but I would kill anyone who tried to destroy the atmospheric lighting of this station!

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Old June 22nd, 2006, 12:25 PM   #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
I don't mind getting on the DLR. If the technology is there for driverless trains, I don't see why we don't use them. I think it would be great to have the Tube being innovative again, breaking ground.

I really do think lighting is important, it is the same as dark and dank pedestrian subways, or poorly lit areas always contribute to general gloominess. Its not so much stations that bother me, but platforms.

Do you think there will ever be an entirely new tube line?
So, you're on a Central Line train halfway between Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street, you're probably a mile from either station, there's no way of opening the doors and besides there's no walkway alongside the train to escape... and something terrible happens. Are you still telling me you'd be happy on an unstaffed train?

The DLR has escape walkways alongside the trains in its few tunnel sections and there is a 'Train captain' anyway. What's the difference between a Tube train with a driver at the front and a DLR train with a Train Captain walking around inside? They both have a salaried member of staff on board. Having a completely unstaffed train is incomprehensible in London.

The Train Captain idea is I think unworkable on a Tube train. In the rush hour if the ATO fails and the driver has to work their way to the front cab to drive manually they could potentially be fighting their way through 8 cars sardine-packed with passengers, taking many minutes if possible at all. They'd also be extremely vulnerable... It was bad enough in my experience driving trains through Barking and Dagenham late at night, the thought of not being in the protection of the cab is frightening. Many people would flatly refuse; some sections of the underground are very dangerous for staff after dark.

I'm still struggling to see your problem with 'gloomy' platforms... I have explained why they can't be lit like a supermarket, they certainly seem adequate. The tube lights have been switched from traditional ones giving off an unnatural orangey glow to ones giving off a colour much more akin to sunlight, this can make the platforms feel less well lit because the colour of the lighting is less noticeable.

Will there ever be an entirely new Tube line? No, I think not. The future is Thameslink and Crossrail-style projects bringing suburban mainline routes under London thus taking the strain off the Tube lines linking mainline termini.
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Old June 22nd, 2006, 12:33 PM   #650
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Ah yes Baker Street, probably about as 'gloomy' as it gets (but still perfectly adequate). This lighting scheme is to re-create the station's appearence as built in 1863... the brick wells in the roof once opened up at street level to let daylight in and smoke out, therefore the lighting has been installed in these wells to (very successfully) give the impression of sunlight from street level lighting the station.

The above photo is quite old anyway, as it shows an unrefurbished C-Stock train... That dates it to being around 15 years old. The below photo shows the station as today, the lighting has been improved with suspended globular lights, which are exact copies of the original gas lamps which lit the platforms at night:

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Old June 22nd, 2006, 08:37 PM   #651
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I think that one of the worst stations in the context of lighting, was Stepney Green before they put up fluorescent lighting. In those days, cynics used to say that if you took a District Line journey from Bow Road to Earl's Court, the state of each station, and the inadequacy of the lighting, was indicative of the social conditions you would find if you got out at that station and explored the locality.
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Old June 23rd, 2006, 04:21 AM   #652
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Forgive me if this was asked before, but there was just too much too read here.

You seem to have a great deal of information on the London Underground. For me, it's a fascinating topic, since it is such a huge system with so many lines and stations to discuss and talk about. The abandoned stations and lines and everything.

I grew up in the New York area, so I had to content myself with that system (admittedly also very large), which was, unfortunately, falling apart during my youth. Watch the film "The Warriors" to get an idea of how bad it was. It's much better these days, though I've lived in Los Angeles since 1989.

Anyway, you have any thoughts about other subway/underground systems? Any favorites? Have you ridden any others? Have you gone on any during holidays, or do you avoid them like the plague during your time away since you're basically living in them every day of the week for your work? Some people are just obsessed, and love their work so they can't stay away. Some people need a break from the everyday routine.

If you haven't ridden any, or ridden very many, are there any you enjoy based on reading about them or seeing pictures?

Do you have any favorite films which prominently feature subways?

Contrary to the old myth, we do have a subway here in Los Angeles, plus three light rail lines, and we're building more.

Thanks...
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Old June 23rd, 2006, 07:11 PM   #653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reluctantpopstar
Forgive me if this was asked before, but there was just too much too read here.

You seem to have a great deal of information on the London Underground. For me, it's a fascinating topic, since it is such a huge system with so many lines and stations to discuss and talk about. The abandoned stations and lines and everything.

I grew up in the New York area, so I had to content myself with that system (admittedly also very large), which was, unfortunately, falling apart during my youth. Watch the film "The Warriors" to get an idea of how bad it was. It's much better these days, though I've lived in Los Angeles since 1989.

Anyway, you have any thoughts about other subway/underground systems? Any favorites? Have you ridden any others? Have you gone on any during holidays, or do you avoid them like the plague during your time away since you're basically living in them every day of the week for your work? Some people are just obsessed, and love their work so they can't stay away. Some people need a break from the everyday routine.

If you haven't ridden any, or ridden very many, are there any you enjoy based on reading about them or seeing pictures?

Do you have any favorite films which prominently feature subways?

Contrary to the old myth, we do have a subway here in Los Angeles, plus three light rail lines, and we're building more.

Thanks...
I'm no 'anorak', so don't seek out other metros, but am happy to compare and contrast the Tube with other systems when I'm abroad. The way I see it metros fall into two categories: Historic / organic and Planned / modern. The former would include London, New York, Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, Moscow etc and the latter Singapore and Hong Kong (amongst many others). It is undeniable that the latter are cleaner, faster, more efficient etc... But I cannot but help love the old systems steeped in history, even if they have their flaws.

I never disliked any foreign metro I've been on to be honest, they're all great in their own way.

There aren't really many films I can think of featuring metros much... Although the British horror flick 'Creep' probably exploits the Tube the most of any film. Sadly I keep noticing glaring inconsistencies in it that most people would be oblivious to, but the Tube is heavily featured so its all good
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Old June 24th, 2006, 12:22 AM   #654
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In regards to the lighting of stations, one of the things I'd never think of critiscising the tube over is lighting. In my opinion it's one of the better things on the tube with stations well lit underground. Perhaps a case could be made for some of the overground stations away from the ticket area.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 12:49 AM   #655
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Here are some excerpts of the London Transport Users commitee meeting, which gives a few tantalising hints of future palns for the DLR.



Canary Wharf Transport Forum: meeting on 27 April 2006
Attending for London TravelWatch: Elizabeth Hall
Others: Jim Berry (Chair) and others from Canary Wharf Group Ltd; transport providers; representatives of local employers; officials from LB Tower Hamlets.
Note: after a couple of exhortationary emails from the LBTH secretariat about poor attendance, there were many more employers and providers here than last time.
DLR update
Nick O’Donnell from DLR reviewed the current state of DLR plans, starting with the 10-12 ideas initially shortlisted which had come down to four:
• Barking Reach: likely to be operational in 2016; following Mayoral decision, now moving to TWA and engaging consultants;
• Wood Wharf: options being considered: would be alternatives to Delta Junction but more expensive;
• Catford: feasibility study to be completed in May 06 showed great difficulties in moving on from Lewisham;
• Bank etc: several ideas, including extensions to Liverpool St, Moorgate, Charing X to be decided in Sept 06.
These would feed into T2025 Project, June 06.
He also reviewed the Stratford/NLL closure, with new DLR to be opened 2010. In response to a question about DLR indicator boards on LUL platforms, Nick said that they would happen in the next few months.
Other DLR projects in gestation were: cycling links with DLR stations; station design guide; complementary works eg access or walkways; and DLR “urban realm”. Improvements to Shadwell station were mentioned, and the improved Limehouse interchange for which funding had been lost and now might be on again.
C2C Rail
A short presentation on the new timetable and its announcement in Sept. News of more Limehouse stops and 20 min frequencies was well received.
--------------
Cordon survey
CWG introduced the most recent survey of movement in and out of Canary Wharf, now conducted annually. There had been remarkable growth in travel outside the peaks and it was also noticeable that the Isle of Dogs was becoming a place to live – with commuting into the City. 12% of CW workers now walk to work.
Other items
The manager of Canary Wharf LUL station announced that scanners would be introduced from 28 May, with prior publicity. (Also at Paddington and two other stations). They would be voluntary [??].
On-bus display (iBus) had been successfully piloted and would be rolled out next year.
Blackwall Tunnel n’bound would have fire safety work starting early 07 with w/e and night closures for two years. This follows the successful upgrade of the s’bound tunnel.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 06:11 PM   #656
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Ooh, I hope the Bank extension westward goes into fruition. What's the Wood Wharf proposal about?
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Old June 25th, 2006, 07:05 PM   #657
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Still about numbering the lines: as proposed also by Tubeman, why not rename one branch of the Northern line (Southern?) and the Edgware Road-Wimbledon service of the District (if this is not going to change)?

(even if I still prefer numbers)
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Old June 26th, 2006, 10:10 PM   #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
Ooh, I hope the Bank extension westward goes into fruition. What's the Wood Wharf proposal about?

All I know is that stage 2 capacity enhancements include the remodelling of the junction North of West India Quay. This involves building more grade seperation links to remove the conflict between trains from Stratford and Bank towards Canary Wharf. I assume any route via the Eastern end of the estate would mean that trains from Stratford would no longer go via the main Canary Wharf station. Either this line would be a dead end with one station or it would go South over the docks and join the main line again North of Cross harbour allowing easy interchange between Bank-Lewisham and Stratford-Stratford trains. The Isle of Dogs would then have its own little loop railway like Chicago! Sort of.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 12:05 AM   #659
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^
That would actually (give or take) follow the route of the original London & Blackwall Railway line from Millwall Junction (roughly where Poplar is today) to North Greenwich (later becoming the DLR station at Island Gardens). Strange how history can repeat itself.
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Old June 27th, 2006, 12:21 AM   #660
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Tubeman, do you know the length of the Hainault loop (length of the full loop) and the length of the Circle Line?
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