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Old July 6th, 2006, 01:00 PM   #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xntrx
Tubeman, does London Metro have any hidden stations which is closed to the public? I think there must be some there because London Metro is a large system.
Yes, loads! Why not buy my book to see them all?
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Old July 6th, 2006, 01:06 PM   #682
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@ Tubeman

I mean, in terms of different lines. That's used and un-used okay. Thanks
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Old July 6th, 2006, 01:13 PM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cebuano Exultor
I mean, in terms of different lines. That's used and un-used okay. Thanks
Hmmm... Very difficult to put a number to...

London's railways have grown organically over the past 170 years, in this time scores of different railways companies have come and gone, each adding their own piece to the jig-saw. The mainline network of South London is so complex and has so many different possible routes that it is very difficult to say how many 'lines' there are... Today they are operated by a handful of franchises (like South West Trains, First Capital Connect, etc), but for example South-West trains operates dozens of different services in London, each could be regarded as a separate 'line' (e.g. Hounslow Loop, Hampton Court, Kingston Loop, Chessington branch, Reading service, Epsom service etc).
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Old July 6th, 2006, 01:33 PM   #684
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@ Tubeman

But obviously, they can't be more than 70 lines, right?
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Old July 6th, 2006, 03:04 PM   #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cebuano Exultor
But obviously, they can't be more than 70 lines, right?
I guarantee there are more than 70 services operated within the London area in reality... In name fewer, yes, but in reality there are easily a hundred different routes served.

To illustrate an underground line like the District Line operates as 5 different services:

Richmond - Upminster
Wimbledon - Upminster
Ealing Broadway - Tower Hill
Wimbledon - Edgware Road
Olympia - High Street Kensington

Now, they appear all as 'District Line' on the Tube map, but they could just as easily be depicted as 5 different lines. In a similar way South-west Trains are shown all in the same colour on the London Connections map yet in reality there are around 20 different services over different branches and routes.

This is why I'm a bit unsure what you're asking for... I could just say 'There are 12 underground lines + DLR + Mainline = 14, or I could consider each (pretty arbitrary) Mainline franchise as a separate entity and end up with perhaps 20 or so 'lines', or I could consider each service a separate 'line' and end up with 100+ 'lines'.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 04:54 PM   #686
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My question: Why there are 2 stations with the same name? (Shepherd's Bush)
One on Central Line and the other on Hammersmith & City, while others stations located in the same area still have different names.
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Old July 6th, 2006, 10:18 PM   #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya


My question: Why there are 2 stations with the same name? (Shepherd's Bush)
One on Central Line and the other on Hammersmith & City, while others stations located in the same area still have different names.
When both stations were built there was no such thing as London Underground and it was completely normal for rival railway companies to build separate stations in an area, often with the same name.

To add to the confusion there was a third Shepherd's Bush station open at the same time as the current two (until 1916). It was built by the London & South-western Railway and was located to the south of the green... So between 1900 and 1916 there were three stations with exactly the same name within a few hundred metres of each other. In fact, throughout history there have actually been 7 different Shepherd's Bush stations at various times!

Generally suffixes have been added to distinguish stations from one another in more modern times, for example the GWR 'Acton' became 'Acton Main Line' while the N&SWJR 'Acton' became 'Acton Central'.

There are dozens of examples like this, it basically comes from private independent railway companies vying for each other's business... They would each assert their station was the best station for an area, and therefore thought it unthinkable to call it anything else that might distinguish it from an existing station.

Off the top of my head the following areas have had multiple stations with the same name:

Sherpherds Bush
Crystal Palace
Alexandra Palace
Stanmore
Brentford
Greenwich
Hammersmith
Epsom

...There are many more
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Old July 6th, 2006, 10:57 PM   #688
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The question is, why did all the others get separate names in the meantime and only the Shepard's Bush"es" remained?
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Old July 7th, 2006, 02:33 PM   #689
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@ Tubeman

I think what you are trying to say that, despite being only one existing physical line as in "District Line", 5 services run on it. Is that what you mean?
Because if Greater London literally has more than a hundred lines then it would make it the "king of urban rail" which, according to past threads here has already been unanimously given to Greater Tokyo.

Well, all I was trying to ask is how many physical lines are existing in Greater London's Rail Network?

Thank you...again. Hehe.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 03:16 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cebuano Exultor
I think what you are trying to say that, despite being only one existing physical line as in "District Line", 5 services run on it. Is that what you mean?
Because if Greater London literally has more than a hundred lines then it would make it the "king of urban rail" which, according to past threads here has already been unanimously given to Greater Tokyo.

Well, all I was trying to ask is how many physical lines are existing in Greater London's Rail Network?

Thank you...again. Hehe.
What Tubeman is trying to say (Correct me if I'm wrong) Is that Where London often bundles many lines together as a single line, other metro's around the world often split them up into fully seperate lines. In his example, he gave the District line, which he said could really be 5 seperate lines, but is only identified as one, with multiple branches.

A good example is to look at a network that doesn't have branches, and each line is fully seperate. Frankfurt is an excellent choice.

Looking at the map below, it is clear that U-bahn Lines, 1,2 and 3, could be used in the London context as a single line with three brances, rather than three seperate lines as used in Frankfurt

Frankfurt Sd - Ginnheim
Frankfurt Sd - Oberursel
Frankfurt Sd - Bad Homburg

Instead of this being U1, U2 and U3, in London it would likely be grouped together and called the "Northern Line"



It is the same with the commuter/suburban services (S-bahn). German network maps usually allocate a fully seperate line with no branches, which is why their maps often have thick bundles of lines in the central area. If the London Underground also done this, there would also be such thick bundled lines.

As for London commuter maps, it's exactly the same story. Take a look at the traditional London suburban rail map, and look carefully at Waterloo Station:
(A far more up to date pdf can be found at this link, if you have problems viewing the old GIF I found)
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system...onnections.pdf


How many suburban rail "Lines" does it show going into Waterloo station? That's the thick, coloured lines. A) Three.

Now, look at the Single Red Line on that same map, it's a "South West Trains" Line that goes to Clapham Junction and beyond. It is registered on that London map as a single line, but with several "branches". How would this look on a German map if they split every branch into a seperate line?

How about this!


Now, that is just from 1 single line going into Waterloo! That single line becomes 20 seperate lines! 16 of which go to Waterloo. Imagine all 13 main terminus' in London, having their lines split up like this. Tubeman is quite correct in his assumption.

As for Toyko, yes, it does have more stations, and more route km than London, but I don't know if it has more lines. Maybe London would have the most lines if they were split up like many other networks around the world. However, it would be one very cluttered map!
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Old July 7th, 2006, 03:44 PM   #691
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^
Thanks Justme, you just saved me a big job!

Cebuano...

As Justme has so adeptly illustrated it is nigh-on impossible to say how many 'lines' there are in London... Waterloo's SWT services total 16 'lines' if regarded separately (which is not unreasonable... in fact pretty logical). Add to this the multitude of other services to other termini like Victoria, London Bridge and Liverpool Street and you get a very complex picture... even more so when you break down complex Underground lines like the District or Metropolitan into their constituent services.

It illustrates how arbitrary it all is... When I was born there was no such thing as the East London Line or Hammersmith & City lines on the Tube map; they were both simply parts of the Metropolitan Line. The service patterns are today pretty much the same, but today its regarded as 3 different lines. By extrapolation the Met could be further split into 3 more lines (Watford, Uxbridge, Amersham / Chesham), and as already mentioned the District 5... where do you stop?

Anyway, I have already said there are 12 Underground lines + DLR + Network Rail

How you want to break it down after that is up to you... If you draw each route separately like the Germans do you'll get 100+ lines and a very baffling map (I would love to see it though!).
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Old July 7th, 2006, 03:46 PM   #692
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OMFG!

That is one complex system. That's probably because of London Rail Network's age. I guess, as a system ages, it becomes more complicated since services come (new service installations) and go (declares bankruptcy/closes down/transfers ownership thus change of name). That explains why London has many un-used rail lines.

It is sad on my part not to know this, obviously because I come from a place that does not have any train network, Cebu. Even our capital region, Metro Manila National Capital Region, has an extremely small network when compared to those giants networks of London, Tokyo, Paris, Madrid and New York.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 03:53 PM   #693
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Well, I just done a quick count, but splitting up the lines on both the Tube and suburban rail maps.

Here is my assessment: Keep in mind, this was done rather quick, and also it only includes the basic urban area of London, not the full metro area:

London Underground: Currently: 12 Lines, Without Branches: 22 Lines
DLR: Currently 1 line, Without Brances: 4 Lines
South West Trains: Currently 1 line, Without Brances: 20 lines
Chilterns Railways: Currently 1 line, Without Brances: 4 Lines
c2c Railways: Currently 1 Line, Without Branhces: 3 Lines
First Capital Connect: Currently 1 Line, Without Branches: 4 Lines
First Great Western: Currently 1 Line, Without Branches: 5 Lines
Heathrow Connect & Express: 2 Lines
"One" Railway: Currently 1 Line, Without Branches: 12 Lines
Silverlink: Currently 1 Line, Without Branches: 7 Lines
Southern Railway: Currently 1 Line, Without Branches: 14 Lines
South Eastern: Currently 1 Line, Without Branches: 17 Lines

Currently 24 seperate lines, but without Branches, each as it's own line: 114 Lines!

As Tubeman pointed out, this count is rather arbitrary (another person may come with a slightly different interpretation). I didn't add every branch, as that would be "doubling". I traced each branch from beginning to end and tried to make sure I included everyone, and not traced over one I already counted. Also, I did not count the tram network in Croyden.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 05:28 PM   #694
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Justme where did you find that London Waterloo Line Map. I can't find anything like it anywhere on the net.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 05:42 PM   #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_taylor
Justme where did you find that London Waterloo Line Map. I can't find anything like it anywhere on the net.
I wish I knew Nick. I found it somewhere ages ago (maybe a couple of years back) when searching for individual line maps for the various networks of London. When I found it, I was amazed, and hoped to also find similar maps for all the other networks, but this was the only one I found. From memory it wasn't at the Line's official web page, but was a discussion on off peak services by a third party.

I just can't remember where I found it.

I have it in pdf if you want me to send it to you.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 05:50 PM   #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro
The question is, why did all the others get separate names in the meantime and only the Shepard's Bush"es" remained?
Probanly coincidence and arbitrary decisions not everything will agree with.

For example, just because there's a mall connecting the two Hammersmith stations doesn't make me think of them as a single station even today, no matter how hard they try to make it look that way on maps.
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Old July 7th, 2006, 06:31 PM   #697
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Quote:
How you want to break it down after that is up to you... If you draw each route separately like the Germans do you'll get 100+ lines and a very baffling map (I would love to see it though!).
I agree, but IMHO, both this and this are quite confusing. It would be useful thinking about a numbering scheme for services and an intermediate map style (as example, showing the Egware Road-Wimbledon or one of the two branches of the Northern service of London Underground qith different names and colors, and keeping and numbering the other services). And maybe simplify the local/express ervices joining them (if applicable).
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Old July 7th, 2006, 11:03 PM   #698
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But that would mean some 114+ services in London alone and that doesn't include differences between local and express services....there could be some 150+ rail lines in London. Then add all the commuter lines from the metro area and there could be some 250+ railway lines!

Imagine a railway map like that - it would be pretty mental. I think that would complicate matters pretty much for most people. For smaller rail networks I would agree, but not really for London - its just that large!
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Old July 7th, 2006, 11:11 PM   #699
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I've always wanted to sit down and draw a full London map in Visio or AutoCAD, including both the metro and city in one map, and including all the lines. Of cause, so far I've remained sane and have only entertained the idea in my head. I doubt I would ever start it - life is far too short.
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Old July 8th, 2006, 12:07 AM   #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capzilla
Probanly coincidence and arbitrary decisions not everything will agree with.

For example, just because there's a mall connecting the two Hammersmith stations doesn't make me think of them as a single station even today, no matter how hard they try to make it look that way on maps.
At least it's no problem finding the Hammersmith stations, but I once got lost in the streets when I tried to change lines at Shepard's Bush.
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