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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:50 AM   #61
spsmiler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
1) All Bakerloo Line stations between Queens park and Harrow & Wealdstone are owned by Network Rail, therefore their fares apply, not LU fares.

2) In connection to above, I presume then that LUL fares will apply out to Harrow & Wealdstone. Also I suspect that the slow Euston to Watford Jcn service will be withdrawn and the stations not served by the Bakerloo Line (South Hampstead and Kilburn High Road) may be closed. Therefore the Bakerloo Line could be extended to serve all stations to watford Junction for the first time since the 1980's, and exclusively so.

3) It probably relates to a footnote on the map; the station is exit only Saturday daytime because its so busy and only has lifts.

mmm, I read point 2 with dismay.

OK, so the pen pushers might decide to carve up the railway and hand over the Euston - Watford service to LU. But, I suspect their primary motives will be fiscal, and not for a better service.

I think that ending local services to Euston will seriously disadvantage people because it is the fastest way to that part of central London. OK, so they will stop a few more longer distance trains at Queens Park (slowing down the journey for other people) but because of the less than convenient interchange and the longer gaps between trains it will still make reaching Euston far less convenient than now.

As for the stations south of Queens Park, well, for inner city stations a train every 20 mins is simply not good enough. At a minimum if they dont want to improve the main Euston - Watford infrequency they should bring back the services from the North London Line via Primrose Hill. There are reversing facilities at Willesden Junction Low level. (right now - not after the East London Line extension finally opens, which most likely will be when my grandchildren are old: ps I am 46 and unmarried). Many people suggest that these services only stopped because BR wanted to kill them off - because it wanted to close Broad Street station and sell the land. Thats why in the last few years they ran trains at inconvenient times - for instance one train in the morning rush hour timed to arrive in London just after everyone should be at their desks (ie: anyone who used the trains would be 10-20 minutes late for work, every day) - I know this because I sometimes used these services - and if I remember correctly the evening trains ran at around 5.50pm / 17.50, with most city workers leaving work at 6pm / 18.00. (if it ran at all, as very frequently this train was cancelled)

Then BR complained that the trains were not used!!! death by design.

If I had any say in the matter I would improve train frequencies, improve promotion by putting it on the Underground map and giving it a line name (at one time it was known as the Harlequin line, after a local competition) and get the Croxley link built. Not carve up services so that politician's can stand up and shout "look we are doing something" whilst actually stabbing local people in the back. I would also bring Bakerloo services back to Watford, albeit at busier times only. And, look at bringing the whole line into the zonal system - although this might mean big fare hikes for some local journeys, (I am not sure)

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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:51 AM   #62
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why not build some more tracks?????

and get some new lights!!!!! flurescent isn't nice.

and is 'passenger action' really someone committing suicide.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:51 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetsetwilly
Absolutely amazing thread - Tubeman, you're a genius!

As for a q:

1) What happened to the plans to rebuild Tottenham Court Road Station? Are they just waiting for Crossrail to do the work for them now?

2) I've read explanations elsewhere, but I still can't quite grasp it... Can you explain why abolishing the Circle Line is a good idea? And how would it operate and, more importantly, appear on the Diagram in a way we can all understand?

Many thanks in advance!
1) You're right, probably waiting for Crossrail (...and waiting... and waiting...)

2) I refer you partially to my response re: Aldgate / Aldgate East delays

All of the junctions the Circle Line is involved in are 'flat' junctions; i.e. a Westbound train can be delayed waiting for an eastbound train to cross its path or vice versa. This means that the junctions are points where not only the Circle but also the District, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City Lines experience delays (Aldgate Jcn, Minories Jcn, Gloucester Road Jcn, High St Kensington Jcn, Praed St Jcn, Baker St Jcn)... In short unless the trains are running precisely in their timetabled paths, they end up delaying each other.

A few minutes here and there is of little consequence to, for example, a District Line train... They ultimately end up at a terminus (e.g. Wimbledon) and will have 10-15 minutes timetabled 'turnaround time'. If they arrive 10 minutes late and leave after only 5 minutes, then they can leave on time. The trouble with the Circle Line is that by definition they have no terminus, and therefore they can keep on 'circling' getting later and later with no hope of getting back on time if movement across the junctions is sluggish.

The logic behind abolishing the Circle Line as we know it is to provide it with a terminus to allow the service to recover from late running. What is proposed is a 'Teacup' Line which goes from Wimbledon to Wimbledon via the Circle Line either clockwise or anticlockwise (presumably alternate trains) so that a 15 minute 'turnaround' time can be timetabled at Wimbledon to allow for recovery of mild late running.

What would happen to High St Kensington to Gloucester Road I don't know... it may be abandoned.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:53 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
The area is a triangular junction, I've heard the busiest on the planet, but don't quote me on that. You have through District Line trains on the South side, through Hammersmith & City Line trains on the North side, and through Circle Line trains on the east side plus terminating Metropolitan Line services.

If the junctions were worked to timetable, there'd be a hopeless mess of congestion, so the signalling works on "First Come" basis, for example if a District and Hammersmith & City train approach Aldgate East simultaneously whichever train passes a certain signal first is given priority (I could go into more detail, but it would take hours!). This means that whichever train loses the race has to wait for the other to be routed in front, hence the dallying in tunnels in that area (also at signal OP38 between Paddington Circle and Edgware Road, in the Baker St area and at Gloucester Road EB).
really, no timetable?

now that is new information to me!

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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:58 AM   #65
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why is the Hammersmith &c City, Metropolitan, Circle, and District lines the slowest on the network. I try to avoid them like the plague, like today I was at Whitechapel and i had the option of using the district line to get home to embankment and then onto oxford circus by the bakerloo. But instead i thought i would wait for the ham and city to liverpool st to oxford circus.

Why oh why oh why London Underground is the district line and its related lines so friggin slow!!!!!!
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Old November 26th, 2005, 12:59 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
really, no timetable?

now that is new information to me!

Simon
Most of the 'flat' junctions work on 'First Come (First Served)'... the trains are running to timetable until they enter that controlled area, then they are at the mercy of 'First Come' until they leave the controlled area.

If you imagine the District Line running on time and the Hammermsith & City 15 late, you can appreciate the timetable has to go out of the window at Aldgate East or each District would be delayed 15 minutes waiting for its booked path between H&C Trains.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:05 AM   #67
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You're a genius Tubeman!

What is the train to Heathrow that is being offered on new underground maps beginning from Summer 2005 (from Edgeware Road or Ealing Bwy, I always confuse the two)? Is this in service now?

Also, why is the District line Earl's Court - Olympia service still in operation? It always seems empty. Any way the District line branches in the west will ever configure in any other way?
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:05 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
why not build some more tracks?????

and get some new lights!!!!! flurescent isn't nice.

and is 'passenger action' really someone committing suicide.
More tracks... I wish

New lights... The refurbished D Stock (District Line) trains have newer Flourescent Tubes which give off 'daylight' as opposed to the current harsh radioactive orangey glow of most trains. I presume this is the future.

If you're feeling really trainspottery, there's half a train of refurbished D Stock (the prototype) which uses an experimental 'lunar' flourescent lighting. Its casts an unnatural deathly glow over the whole carriage and makes everyone look undead or at best very ill. You'd know it if you saw it, as 3 of 6 cars only have been repainted on the outside, and only the middle of those three has been refurbished inside... that is the one with the evil lighting.

'Passenger Action' means all sorts... Person under train, passenger alarm activation, fight, vandalised train, object on track... you name it!
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:07 AM   #69
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And I just thought of another one. Why does Earl's Court not have electronic boards saying when trains are? And conversely, why do some electronic boards remain blank for so long? Do they really not know when the next train will be?
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:13 AM   #70
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Fantastic thread

there is so much I want to know about the LU but no questions come to mind right this minute
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:15 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
You're a genius Tubeman!

What is the train to Heathrow that is being offered on new underground maps beginning from Summer 2005 (from Edgeware Road or Ealing Bwy, I always confuse the two)? Is this in service now?

Also, why is the District line Earl's Court - Olympia service still in operation? It always seems empty. Any way the District line branches in the west will ever configure in any other way?
'Heathrow Connect' started running this Summer from Ealing Broadway to Heathrow Airport stopping all stations (all 4 of them if I remember correctly). Heathrow Express obviously didn't want it running into Paddington and competeing with their cosy and extortionate monopoly! Its primarily a local service for airport workers, as thousands of the tens of thousands working at Heathrow live in the Southall / Hanwell / Ealing areas. I suppose its slightly useful for people in West London going to the airport to travel, but they also have the Piccadilly Line.

The Olympia service was always exhibition traffic only until 1986, when we experimented with providing a 15 minute service all day every day. Kensington Olympia has actually proved to be a pretty busy station, especially now it has regular Mainline trains. In the rush hour I see over a hundred passengers getting on each train to Olympia from my office window, and when an exhibition is on at Olympia it can get very busy (which is a lot of the time).
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:25 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
And I just thought of another one. Why does Earl's Court not have electronic boards saying when trains are? And conversely, why do some electronic boards remain blank for so long? Do they really not know when the next train will be?
With Earl's Court the decision as to which platform a train will go into is made last minute by the 'First Come' signalling principle I mentioned previously. Therefore an Ealing Train might be departing Gloucester Road, but its not until just outside Earl's Court that the signalling 'knows' which platform it will go into... therefore a 'dot matrix' indicator familiar at most stations would remain blank until about 1 minute before the train rolls in... Not very useful!

Regarding some boards remaining blank, it depends on the geography leading up to that platform. A good example is where I wait every day to go home, Earl's Court Eastbound Piccadilly Line Platform. You'll never see any time longer than 3 minutes advertised, it will be blank until then. This is because 3 minutes away at Baron's Court there is the junction between the District and Piccadilly Lines (technically 'fast' and 'slow') and the system cannot 'know' for sure where the next train will come from as often Engineer's trains will be routed off the District onto the Piccadilly at Barons Court which would 'confuse' the system.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:33 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
More tracks... I wish

New lights... The refurbished D Stock (District Line) trains have newer Flourescent Tubes which give off 'daylight' as opposed to the current harsh radioactive orangey glow of most trains. I presume this is the future.

If you're feeling really trainspottery, there's half a train of refurbished D Stock (the prototype) which uses an experimental 'lunar' flourescent lighting. Its casts an unnatural deathly glow over the whole carriage and makes everyone look undead or at best very ill. You'd know it if you saw it, as 3 of 6 cars only have been repainted on the outside, and only the middle of those three has been refurbished inside... that is the one with the evil lighting.

'Passenger Action' means all sorts... Person under train, passenger alarm activation, fight, vandalised train, object on track... you name it!
I have noticed strange goings on, on the district line, since the refurbished trains came on stream.....

And tubeman why does it take so long to change an escalator!!!!!!!
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:37 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
'Heathrow Connect' started running this Summer from Ealing Broadway to Heathrow Airport stopping all stations (all 4 of them if I remember correctly). Heathrow Express obviously didn't want it running into Paddington and competeing with their cosy and extortionate monopoly! Its primarily a local service for airport workers, as thousands of the tens of thousands working at Heathrow live in the Southall / Hanwell / Ealing areas. I suppose its slightly useful for people in West London going to the airport to travel, but they also have the Piccadilly Line.
Hangon. Is this a service that follows the route of the Heathrow express, but with more stops?

If so, is it cheaper than Heathrow Express, yet faster than the tube?
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:37 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
And tubeman why does it take so long to change an escalator!!!!!!!
Pass, I'm a trains bod, not a stations bod. I suppose each one is tailor-made to the exact dimensions of the previous one (i.e. angle, length etc) which must take time.
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:40 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Hangon. Is this a service that follows the route of the Heathrow express, but with more stops?

If so, is it cheaper than Heathrow Express, yet faster than the tube?
Yes, but with one fatal flaw... It terminates at Ealing Broadway so doesn't provide a direct service to Central London
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:44 AM   #77
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What is the length of the longest train line?
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:49 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
Yes, but with one fatal flaw... It terminates at Ealing Broadway so doesn't provide a direct service to Central London
Thanks Tubeman, but it seems their website isn't very clear. The map here seems to indicate it goes to Paddington. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, I'm on my 7th Martini by now.

http://www.heathrowconnect.com/default.aspx?pageid=1
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Old November 26th, 2005, 01:59 AM   #79
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but you don't find the escalators at Selfridges breaking down every 2 weeks, or the ones at heathrow that require being completely boarded up for 2 years (@Brixton an escalator was out for 2 1/2 years while being fixed)
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Old November 26th, 2005, 02:47 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorker1
What is the length of the longest train line?
You can presumably travel from Wick in Northern Scotland all the way to Vladivostock in Siberia non stop... perhaps even further into China... I don't know which gauge they use (I know SE Asia is 1m gauge).

So tens of thousands of kilometres, basically.
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