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Old August 24th, 2006, 07:00 AM   #801
Rachmaninov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
1) Probably, yes

2) Loads. Pretty much anywhere on any deep-level 'Tube' line that the tunnel turns into anything other than plain castiron ringed tunnel you're probably looking at a 'ghost' station.

Examples:

Between Green park and Hyde Park Corner you rattle over points then pass a brick wall before suddenly descending. The brick wall is built along the edge of Down Street platform, the rapid descent you experience is the 'hump profile' of every tube station whereby the track descends from a platform (to assist acceleration) the ascends into the next platform (to assist deceleration).

Between Knightsbridge and South Kensington you pass another brick wall, this was Brompton Road station. The location is immediately before the Piccadilly Line enters into the torturous series of curves approaching South Kensington.

Other abandoned 'tube' stations that are still visible:

Kentish Town South
York Way
British Museum

These three are simply where the tunnel seems to widen... another instance is 'Bull & Bush' between Hampstead and Golders Green, here the platforms were built but the station never opened.

Other examples on the sub-surface lines are Mark lane (just West of Tower Hill), St Mary's (between Aldgate East and Whitechapel), and the original King's Cross platforms to the east of the current ones. All of these have intact platforms, although it takes a keen eye to spot them in the gloom.
Holy!!! I know exactly where you were talking about and I never noticed those stations!!!!! Why were the stations abandoned then?
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Old August 27th, 2006, 11:27 PM   #802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachmaninov
Holy!!! I know exactly where you were talking about and I never noticed those stations!!!!! Why were the stations abandoned then?
A lot of stations closed during WWI or The Depression never to re-open for economic reasons. In the case of Down Street and Brompton Road there were simply too many stations built between Green Park (then Dover Street) and South Kensington, this wasn't as much of an issue when the Piccadilly Line ran from Hammersmith to Finsbury Park only, but once it was extended at both ends having so many Central London stations became an inconvenience and slowed services down, so the least well used stations suffered. This accounted for South Kentish Town and York Road's demise too.

St Mary's closed when Aldgate East was relocated further east in the 1930's, it was already extremely close to Whitechapel anyway. Mark lane closed when Tower Hill was opened, a few dozen yards to the east, likewise the original King's Cross closed in the 1940's when new platforms were opened closer to the rest of the station complex.
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Old August 28th, 2006, 09:32 AM   #803
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1. While watching videos of the London Underground on YouTube, I noticed that Tube trains start moving off the exact moment after the doors close and the doors open exactly after the train stops, and it accelerates pretty quickly IMO (maybe its because of the noise). Even higher tech systems in Asia take longer. Why is that? Because of automation everything slows down? Because its operated by a driver in many aspects of control its more reactive? Is there a tight schedule to adhere to?

2. I noticed they only announce the name of the station after the doors open, and then the doors stay open for like 5 seconds or so. Whats the point if someone doesnt notice he has arrived at the station until the last minute, and its too late to get off?

3. Who does the announcements? The ones on the Northern Line sound great. Does it differ from line to line? I love the British accent. They even have ''Please mind the doors''. But I didnt hear the famous ''Please mind the gap''.

4. While watching the movie ''Reign Of Fire'' the London Underground's Docklands Extension was mentioned. Was it toally a fictional line?

5. For trains dating back to 1995, they have LED systems installed. Were they part of the original trains or installed later?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by ignoramus; August 28th, 2006 at 10:23 AM.
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Old August 28th, 2006, 12:14 PM   #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoramus
1. While watching videos of the London Underground on YouTube, I noticed that Tube trains start moving off the exact moment after the doors close and the doors open exactly after the train stops, and it accelerates pretty quickly IMO (maybe its because of the noise). Even higher tech systems in Asia take longer. Why is that? Because of automation everything slows down? Because its operated by a driver in many aspects of control its more reactive? Is there a tight schedule to adhere to?

2. I noticed they only announce the name of the station after the doors open, and then the doors stay open for like 5 seconds or so. Whats the point if someone doesnt notice he has arrived at the station until the last minute, and its too late to get off?

3. Who does the announcements? The ones on the Northern Line sound great. Does it differ from line to line? I love the British accent. They even have ''Please mind the doors''. But I didnt hear the famous ''Please mind the gap''.

4. While watching the movie ''Reign Of Fire'' the London Underground's Docklands Extension was mentioned. Was it toally a fictional line?

5. For trains dating back to 1995, they have LED systems installed. Were they part of the original trains or installed later?

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1) I'd say so, pretty much... There is a simple proving circuit around all the doors which illuminates a light ('Pilot Light') in the driver's cab the instant all the doors are closed, the instant this illuminates the driver can 'wind up' and achieve forward motion. On automated stocks there may be a delay or perhaps a more complicated proving system which may lead to a longer pause between the doors closing and the train accelerating.

I have also noticed on the Jubilee Line where there are Platform Edge Doors (PEDs) the delay seems a little longer, this is presumably because the PEDs and train doors all need to be proved closed and then the information about the PEDs transmitted to the driver's cab somehow. PEDs seem pretty standard on more modern systems, or at least in Hong Kong and Singapore. This may explain a longer pause.

2) Announcements come from 4 sources:

- Digitised Voice Announcement (DVA) on the trains
- The driver using the train Public Address (PA)
- Automatic announcements on platfoms triggered by trains arriving
- PAs made by platform staff

The former is found on all stocks except the A (Met & East London), 1973 (Piccadilly), and D Stocks as yet unrefurbished... These (unless disabled by the driver) tend to announce the next station before arrival and upon arrival.

The second is at the whim of the driver... we used to be encouraged to announce main interchanges in transit before arrival, but it was then decided anything that might distract from driving (i.e. including making PAs) should be avoided whilst the train is moving. Therefore, yes, drivers make PAs upon arrival which is usually a bit late!

Ditto automated announcements on platforms... These are overridden by platform staff if they are making their own PAs, they are generally incredibly posh (BBC English) and bark the name of the station and the name of the next station before 'Please stand clear of the closing doors'. They give no information about where the train is going, as it doesn't 'know' this information.

Finally, PAs made by platform staff are again of little use to anyone on the train, as they aren't going to hear them until the train has stopped and doors have opened.

So yes, I concede announcing the station and what lines you can change for at the station itself is a little late... but drivers are no longer allowed to manually make PAs between stations and not all stocks have DVA.

3) The pre-recorded and digitised announcements were all recorded by actors and actresses and cannot be changed. As for the PAs on stations and trains, these are made by the staff and come in a wide variety of accents!

If you want to hear the infamous 'Mind the gap!' find a station on a curve, Bank Central Line, Embankment Northern Line Northbound and a few others are examples... these all bark 'Mind the gap!' as trains arrive. District Line trains terminating at Tower Hill also spark the same order over the station PA.

4) I've not seen it, although it may well refer to the Jubilee Line extension?

5) As far as I can recall just the 1995 and 1996 (Northern / Jubilee) came with LED displays in the cars as standard... I'm pretty sure the 1992 (Central) doesn't, although these were the first trains to have LED destination displays on the front of the trains as opposed to illuminated 'blinds' hand-wound by the driver. The Piccadilly Line (1973) refurb was the first refurb to carry in-car LEDs, the earlier refurbs (i.e. all the others) did not... The currently being refurbished District D Stocks not only
have displays inside the cars, but also in the windows of the cars facing the platform, a good innovation.
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Old August 28th, 2006, 07:55 PM   #805
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Oops

Last edited by Smarty; August 28th, 2006 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Duplicate message
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Old August 28th, 2006, 07:56 PM   #806
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Finally made it through all pages I posted before when I was only half way through.

Some more questions for you, oh tube god

1. I know you said you're not really that familiar with the East London Line but the other day I was at Wapping Station for the first time and was surprised to hear running water at the end of the platform. It must be deep under the level of the river so do you know what the water is - is it an underground tributary of the Thams ?

2. Did Lambeth North used to be called Kennington Rd ? When It was being refurbished a few years back I remember seeing tiles that looked like they were saying Kennington Rd (ps I've just ordered your book so will hopefully know this myself in a week or so)

3. I read something once about the old line that used to go to Island Gardens (ie pre DLR). I think it was a cable railway ??? Do you know how that works ?

4. I've always wondered what happens to the driver if someone commits suicide under their train. Must be difficult to return to driving again - do they get offered redundancy ? Is Tooting (Bec or Broadway - not sure which) still the suicide capital of the underground ?
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Old August 28th, 2006, 08:55 PM   #807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty
Finally made it through all pages I posted before when I was only half way through.

Some more questions for you, oh tube god

1. I know you said you're not really that familiar with the East London Line but the other day I was at Wapping Station for the first time and was surprised to hear running water at the end of the platform. It must be deep under the level of the river so do you know what the water is - is it an underground tributary of the Thams ?

2. Did Lambeth North used to be called Kennington Rd ? When It was being refurbished a few years back I remember seeing tiles that looked like they were saying Kennington Rd (ps I've just ordered your book so will hopefully know this myself in a week or so)

3. I read something once about the old line that used to go to Island Gardens (ie pre DLR). I think it was a cable railway ??? Do you know how that works ?

4. I've always wondered what happens to the driver if someone commits suicide under their train. Must be difficult to return to driving again - do they get offered redundancy ? Is Tooting (Bec or Broadway - not sure which) still the suicide capital of the underground ?
1) All of the Sub-surface lines near the Thames have a drainage tunnel running below track level, usually in the so-called '6 foot' between the two tracks. Every 30 yards or so there are drain covers from which running water can normally be heard. They run downhill to pumps at the low points, which I presume remove the water into the sewerage system.

Being directly below the Thames as you can imagine there's a lot of water ingress into the ELL tunnel, so the flow along the drain would be constant and pretty loud.

There are a few places where the Underground interacts with the many underground rivers of London... One is Sloane Square, about halfway along the platforms a large (perhaps 6 foot diameter) black iron pipe... This actually carries the River Westbourne over the tracks. The River is what is dammed to create the Sepentine lake in Hyde Park, and also gives rise to the area name 'Westbourne Park'. Just West of Blackfriars platforms, if you have the pleasure of carrying out a night track inspection, you can hear the River Fleet rushing below your feet. The Thameslink line follows the route of The Fleet (give or take) all the way to King's Cross; the Metropolitan Railway and the later extension to Blackfriars from farringdon were built through the 'Fleet Valley' quite simply by levelling the notorious slums which lined the river, by then a foetid open sewer.

2) Correct. Lambeth North opened as 'Kennington Road' originally in 1906, but was then renamed 'Westminster Bridge Road' later that year... This is the name which still appears on the tiling. It was further renamed 'Lambeth North' in 1928... quite a lot of different names for such an insignificant station!

3) You remember correctly-ish! The original route into the Isle of Dogs was a branch off the London & Blackwall Railway, this was the second passenger railway in London, opening in 1840. It ran from Minories station (just east of the present Fenchurch Street) to a riverside station at Blackwall, pretty much where New Providence Wharf is being built today. The current DLR / C2C uses the original viaduct all the way from what was Minories to a point between Westferry and Poplar stations, beyond here the route has been obliterated by the A13. The London & Blackwall was originally cable-hauled... the workings were ingenious and peculiar in equal measure.

There was a carriage for each station en route and huge static cable-hauling machine at Minories, a full train would depart Minories and then a single carriage would be 'slipped', literally detached from the back, before each station, and a brakeman would bring it to a halt. The return journey entailed each 'slipped' carriage being re-attached to the train as it returned from Blackwall, this precluded any journeys between individual stations on the line.

This bizarre method of running a railway was soon abandonded in favour of steam traction... but long sections of the viaduct had to be enclosed to prevent cinders from passing locomotives starting fires on the ships and dock warehouses adjacent to the line... This was one of the main considerations when cable traction was first chosen.

In 1872 a branch was opened off this original route at a station called 'Millwall Junction', roughly where Poplar station is today, which headed in virtually a straight line due south all the way to a station named 'North Greenwich' (not to be confused with the modern version on the Jubilee Line). The final stretch of this line was a single-track brick viaduct across open ground to the terminus station, which still survives today (and is listed). It was abandoned along with the passenger service to North Greenwich in 1926, remaining so until being re-used by the DLR when first opened in 1987. The new terminus, Island Gardens, was on the north side of Manchester Road whereas North Greenwich was reached by a bridge across the main road to a position on the south side, right next to the river.

The little viaduct's fate was sealed, probably for the final time, in 1999 when the Lewisham extension of the DLR opened, deviating from the original London & Blackwall and DLR route between Crossharbour and Mudchute stations.

The viaduct across Mudchute today:



So yes, the railway company who originally reached into the Isle of Dogs was originally cable-hauled, but the branch itself never was. It was an interesting ride, lampooned by victorian cartoonists, because it passed through several areas of private docks it resulted in 3 locomotive changes during the 2-mile journey. If I remember correctly when first opened one of the legs of the journey was horse-drawn, and it was notoriously slow and unreliable.

4) Each driver handles it differently. I've seen people come back after 1 day, others after 9 months, and a minority never. They are offered Trauma support (colleagues who have dealt with their own 'One unders') as well as professional counselling from occupational health. If a driver feels unable to return after 9 months (when Sick pay runs out) they will be offered redeployment to a different job with protected earnings for 3 years, but they will have to take a pay cut after this runs out unless they have gained promotion to a job with equivalent money to Driver in that period.

Some have had so many they are almost flippant about it... A guy at my depot with 25 year's experience has had 9 'One unders', that's probably the best way of dealing with it... not to care too much. After all they just happened to be in the cab of a 300 ton train when someone decided to jump in front... there's nothing they can do about it.

Probably the nastiest part is that the Drivers must attend Coroner's Court, and will come face to face with the relatives, but again they have nothing to feel guilty about.

Tooting Bec is no longer the suicide capital of the Underground... Furzedown Mental Hospital outside the station closed over 10 years ago, this was the source of all the suicides. These days I'd say Mile End seems to have a lot... I don'tknow which station has the most for definite though.

Last edited by Tubeman; August 28th, 2006 at 09:00 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2006, 09:37 PM   #808
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Thanks Tubeman. Fascinating stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
. but drivers are no longer allowed to manually make PAs between stations and not all stocks have DVA.
I always wondered if drivers were encouraged to talk to the passengers or not. I remember going from Old St to Angel (the fastest bit of underground ? It rattles along at a fair old rate) when the driver apologised for us being packed in but said that we'd be well acquainted with the person thrusting their hips into ours by the time we reached King's Cross.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 02:01 AM   #809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty
Thanks Tubeman. Fascinating stuff.



I always wondered if drivers were encouraged to talk to the passengers or not. I remember going from Old St to Angel (the fastest bit of underground ? It rattles along at a fair old rate) when the driver apologised for us being packed in but said that we'd be well acquainted with the person thrusting their hips into ours by the time we reached King's Cross.
I think I heard the same bloke. I used to live at Angel, and there was a very comical driver who did hilarious PAs on the Northern Line. The service is often so bad I suppose you'd need a sense of humour!
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Old August 29th, 2006, 10:29 AM   #810
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I always wondered what that was viaduct was for (in Island Gardens)!
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Old August 29th, 2006, 12:51 PM   #811
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When buying your book, I noticed one of the other recommendations was called London's Lost Tube Schemes. In the description it says:

Whilst many books have been published about the tube railways that were built in London, this is the first time a book has been devoted to the many schemes that failed, including the notable Morgan Tubes. Using extensive original research the history of these schemes is described. Maps and diagrams of the time are reproduced and complimented by many new maps, specially-drawn for this book. Many proposed alternatives and changes to the tube railways that exist today are also explored. Other interesting and related topics are explored in sidebars, and extensive footnotes provide extra information and references.

Do you know what the Morgan Tubes are ?
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Old August 29th, 2006, 12:59 PM   #812
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Also I can understand why they can't instal air conditioning on the deep level tube lines but couldn't they air condition the stations ? Wouldn't that help with the problem of heat ?
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Old August 29th, 2006, 01:30 PM   #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty
Do you know what the Morgan Tubes are ?


I can only assume there was a Mr Morgan who had a penchant for proposing Tube lines... obviously with little success!
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Old August 29th, 2006, 01:40 PM   #814
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Quote:
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Also I can understand why they can't instal air conditioning on the deep level tube lines but couldn't they air condition the stations ? Wouldn't that help with the problem of heat ?
Hmmmm I'm unsure how effective that would be; trains are (most of the time) sealed capsules and therefore relatively easy to air condition. Stations are far larger spaces and there are lots of areas which can't be sealed (e.g. the entrance, the tunnels into platforms etc) and so it would probably be a losing battle. That amount of air conditioning would take up a lot of space (something absent from most Yerkes stations) and moreover land would have to be found at street level to vent the hot air. I suspect it would easily double our electricity consumption too.

The experimental groundwater air cooling system is being trialled at Victoria station I think; here heat exchange takes place between the air and the groundwater (which should be in the region of 20C), I don't know how effective it will prove to be.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 03:28 PM   #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
Hmmmm I'm unsure how effective that would be; trains are (most of the time) sealed capsules and therefore relatively easy to air condition. Stations are far larger spaces and there are lots of areas which can't be sealed (e.g. the entrance, the tunnels into platforms etc) and so it would probably be a losing battle. That amount of air conditioning would take up a lot of space (something absent from most Yerkes stations) and moreover land would have to be found at street level to vent the hot air. I suspect it would easily double our electricity consumption too.

The experimental groundwater air cooling system is being trialled at Victoria station I think; here heat exchange takes place between the air and the groundwater (which should be in the region of 20C), I don't know how effective it will prove to be.
Large open spaces can be air conditioned rather easily, even if they are not fully enclosed - you can see this in hot country's where it is really needed. Of cause, it is rather expensive. The main problems with underground stations, is not so much the open ends, as directional airflow can combat this, but the trains shooting through, which push all that cool air out and warm air in each time a train arrives.

What I'd like to know, is are there any air conditioned underground platforms in the warmer cities of the world, and how they combat the air movement from incoming trains.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 07:09 PM   #816
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Well somebody from Melbourne might be able to confirm this but im sure that all of Melbourne Central, Parliamant and Flagstaff gardens undergound platforms are all air-conditioned, well they have vents everywhere and they sure as were cold during summer...
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Old August 29th, 2006, 09:42 PM   #817
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Well somebody from Melbourne might be able to confirm this but im sure that all of Melbourne Central, Parliamant and Flagstaff gardens undergound platforms are all air-conditioned, well they have vents everywhere and they sure as were cold during summer...
From my recollection the subterranean stations in Melbourne are rather shallow-level compared to the deep 'tubes' in London. Certainly the shallower 'sub-surface' stations of London's Underground are far cooler than the 'tube' platforms naturally, more akin to a dank cave. I think the issue with London's tube lines is that they are often very far below ground level (following the seam of clay) and moreover have little or no natural ventilation. The Victoria Line is wholly underground, the Bakerloo Line is a dead-end deep tunnel from Queens Park to Elephant & Castle, and a line like the Northern has over 17 miles of continuous tunnel between Morden and East Finchley with no ventilation.

I'm pretty certain the Singapore metro stations are Air-conditioned, but the problem of trains pushing air around is avoided as all platforms have platform edge doors which unlike the Jubilee line are sealed at the top.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 08:30 AM   #818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
From my recollection the subterranean stations in Melbourne are rather shallow-level compared to the deep 'tubes' in London. Certainly the shallower 'sub-surface' stations of London's Underground are far cooler than the 'tube' platforms naturally, more akin to a dank cave. I think the issue with London's tube lines is that they are often very far below ground level (following the seam of clay) and moreover have little or no natural ventilation. The Victoria Line is wholly underground, the Bakerloo Line is a dead-end deep tunnel from Queens Park to Elephant & Castle, and a line like the Northern has over 17 miles of continuous tunnel between Morden and East Finchley with no ventilation.

I'm pretty certain the Singapore metro stations are Air-conditioned, but the problem of trains pushing air around is avoided as all platforms have platform edge doors which unlike the Jubilee line are sealed at the top.
Why aren't the doors on the JLE sealed up at the top since they are new. That way the stations can be air conditioned as well. They should have a policy of air conditioning all new stations that are underground and installing Platform screen doors in them. But transport fares would probably increase tenfold if stations start getting air conditioning and these doors, especially for such a expensive city like London (at least for tourists)...
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Old August 30th, 2006, 08:46 AM   #819
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I don't think there is a need to air condition the stations. Air conditioning the trains is necessary, especially when the trains are stuck between stations in the tunnels awaiting a signal change. Although it doesn't get that warm in London during the summer, even a 26C day can result in a heat wave on an idle train.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 12:31 PM   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoramus
Why aren't the doors on the JLE sealed up at the top since they are new. That way the stations can be air conditioned as well. They should have a policy of air conditioning all new stations that are underground and installing Platform screen doors in them. But transport fares would probably increase tenfold if stations start getting air conditioning and these doors, especially for such a expensive city like London (at least for tourists)...
I think you answered your own question! Money's key...

Singapore is virtually on the Equator and has humid, tropical weather all year round... I'd say aircon is a neccessity. Ditto Hong Kong, for much of the year the heat and humidity are unbearable. London may peak at similar temperatures every summer, but this is only ever for a day or so. There's probably only 4 weeks per year with temperatures in excess of 25C... cost-benefit analysis must have been carried out and come up with a resounding 'no'.

The new S Stock (refer back a couple of pages) will be airconditioned thankfully, this is because they run through shallower tunnels built for steam trains with lots of vents (originally for smoke & steam to escape), therefore the heat can escape. The subsurface stations are already pretty cool anyway, certainly cooler than street level and far cooler than deep-level tube platforms.

I for one wouldn't want to see PEDs everywhere... they would destroy the character of the old Yerkes stations;



...Cost a fortune, and wouldn't stop 'One unders' as people would just go to open-section stations to top themselves instead.
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