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Old August 30th, 2006, 09:23 PM   #821
sarflonlad
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This thread is like beer: I can't get enough of it and it makes me feel good :P

Question: Suppose the Northern Line is extended Southwards from Kennington and thus split into 2 separate lines, do you think with a bit of additional tunneling and realignment at either Camden Town or Euston in the north and Kennington (not already including the complex crossovers there) or Oval in the south, LU could have themselves another circle line operating in a similar way to the existing one? i.e. track sharing with the new kennington line and bank branch on the east side... sharing with the morden and charing cross branch on the west side?

A piss poor diagram:

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Old August 31st, 2006, 01:18 AM   #822
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There's certainly no reason why not, but I suppose it defeats the point of splitting the Northern Line to simplify it only to then introduce a new service sharing the tracks.

I'm very much in favour of a southward extension ex-Charing Cross Branch from kennington... It could serve Brixton, Brixton Hill, Streatham Hill, Streatham, Norbury then under the London road to Croydon (intermediate stop at Thornton Heath Pond). In the north it would exclusively take over the Edgware Branch such that the two new lines would be Edgware - Croydon and High Barnet / Mill Hill East - Morden. The reason for splitting the northern branches thus is that the two major overhaul depots are at Morden and Golders Green, so each new line gets one each.

The junctions could all be removed at Camden, perhaps retaining those at Kennington for stock transfer and engineers trains. The basic rule of thumb for successful metro lines is simplicity... The Northern and also the Sub-surface lines suffer from complexity and junction working, not something a line like the Victoria has to worry about.
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Old August 31st, 2006, 01:41 AM   #823
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Is there any chance of the Northern Line actually being split like that? I personally never actually wait for a train to the right branch when going northbound from the centre. It can take ages so I'll just change at Camden Town.
Given how much pressure LU gets and how it's still the worst performing line, it seems like such a simple solution.
I've also heard (fairly reliable) rumours about the Mill Hill East branch becoming a shuttle... know anything about that?
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Old August 31st, 2006, 03:06 AM   #824
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Nothing official. For much the same reason that the Olympia service runs as short shuttle, the Mill Hill branch would be able to provide a far more reliable service if operated as a shuttle.

I really don't understand the desire to hold on to the unified Northern Line... Its complicated, prone to disastrous operational problems, and is no doubt more than a little confusing to non-Londoners.
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Old August 31st, 2006, 10:09 AM   #825
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Does anybody get any mp3 or sound files of the London Underground Stations or Trains Announcements (especially for Celia's voice)?
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Old August 31st, 2006, 10:57 AM   #826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
I'm very much in favour of a southward extension ex-Charing Cross Branch from kennington... It could serve Brixton, Brixton Hill, Streatham Hill, Streatham, Norbury then under the London road to Croydon (intermediate stop at Thornton Heath Pond).
If this line was extended all the way to Croydon, in London's southern suburbs, could it still realistically be called the Northern Line? If not, what could it be called?
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Old August 31st, 2006, 11:12 AM   #827
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Right here:

http://www.haltestellenansage.de/ans.../london_en.htm
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Old August 31st, 2006, 01:31 PM   #828
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Originally Posted by AG
Great find!

Perhaps we should play this on a constant loop?
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Old August 31st, 2006, 02:31 PM   #829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc
If this line was extended all the way to Croydon, in London's southern suburbs, could it still realistically be called the Northern Line? If not, what could it be called?
Why not? The Northern line is already the southern-most line on the network.

As I've said before, if the Northern line were to be split, I'd call the Charing Cross branch the Northern line and the Bank branch the City & South London line...
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Old August 31st, 2006, 09:55 PM   #830
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I like the thought of Charing Cross - Edgware reverting to the colloquial 'Hampstead Tube'... Barnet to Morden would be more logically 'Northern' as it runs over parts of the Great Northern railway's 'Northern Heights' lines.
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Old September 8th, 2006, 01:18 PM   #831
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Hi Tubey,

wow, page 42, and still going strong!

many congrats.


btw, the splitting of the Northern Line is not a new idea, but I think the real issue is funding. Who would pay?

Extending further south (eg: Croydon) might seem a good idea in theory but the Morden route is already overcrowded. At one time a start was made on buidling new tunnels with a long term aim to 4 tracking it and even part of Charing Cross Branch (express service with fewer stops) but that idea seems to have died ages ago. As has the 9 car idea for longer trains.

Anyway, Croydon is very well served with mainline trains which reach Central London much faster than the underground ever would / could, plus it has trams too.

As you suggest, a transport corridor which does need investment is the A23 road, as the buses are very busy and rail provision very poor. As we know, extending the Victoria Line beyond Brixton would not be wise, as the line just about copes with the passenger numbers as it is. This is where a second Northern Line branch would be of benefit, and by routing the two southern branches via dedicated central & north London routes London would effectively get two lines for the price of a short extension... and these two lines would have far greater passenger capacity than at present.

But this will not please those people (especially in north London) who would lose through services which they curently enjoy.

For my mind the Mill Hill East service should be extended south at East Finchley towards Finsbury Park, and even to Moorgate, as a third service sharing with the First Capital Connect (as they are now known) trains which only serve Moorgate weekday daytimes.

Now where have I seen that proposal before (smile)

Simon

ps, had the Victoria Line is line been built to accept larger trains, as originally proposed in the 1944 plans then maybe a southern extension would have been feasible, as it (probably) would not have been so overcrowded.
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Last edited by spsmiler; September 8th, 2006 at 01:24 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2006, 11:16 AM   #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
Hi Tubey,

wow, page 42, and still going strong!

many congrats.


btw, the splitting of the Northern Line is not a new idea, but I think the real issue is funding. Who would pay?

Extending further south (eg: Croydon) might seem a good idea in theory but the Morden route is already overcrowded. At one time a start was made on buidling new tunnels with a long term aim to 4 tracking it and even part of Charing Cross Branch (express service with fewer stops) but that idea seems to have died ages ago. As has the 9 car idea for longer trains.

Anyway, Croydon is very well served with mainline trains which reach Central London much faster than the underground ever would / could, plus it has trams too.

As you suggest, a transport corridor which does need investment is the A23 road, as the buses are very busy and rail provision very poor. As we know, extending the Victoria Line beyond Brixton would not be wise, as the line just about copes with the passenger numbers as it is. This is where a second Northern Line branch would be of benefit, and by routing the two southern branches via dedicated central & north London routes London would effectively get two lines for the price of a short extension... and these two lines would have far greater passenger capacity than at present.

But this will not please those people (especially in north London) who would lose through services which they curently enjoy.

For my mind the Mill Hill East service should be extended south at East Finchley towards Finsbury Park, and even to Moorgate, as a third service sharing with the First Capital Connect (as they are now known) trains which only serve Moorgate weekday daytimes.

Now where have I seen that proposal before (smile)

Simon

ps, had the Victoria Line is line been built to accept larger trains, as originally proposed in the 1944 plans then maybe a southern extension would have been feasible, as it (probably) would not have been so overcrowded.
I think you slightly misunderstood what was being mooted; the Northern Line to Morden is busy enough, what we were discussing was a southward extension from the Charing Cross Platforms at Kennington, as after the 'split' the southern end of the Edgware - Kennington line would not be realising its full potential (much like the Bakerloo). I'm sure few people in Croydon would use the Tube to get into London, but it would provide a very useful local link along the A23 and some valuable interchanges (i.e. with the mainline at Streatham Hill, Streatham and Norbury and of course West & East Croydon). I'd like to see a terminal loop linking the two Croydons, or perhaps even a continuation via Purley to the Caterham and / or Tattenham Corner Branches which it could take over.
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Old September 10th, 2006, 01:50 PM   #833
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Do you think there's a chance that links to the North London Line will be improved now following the announcement of the London Overground - perhaps rebuilding Camden Town to link with Camden Rd, and re-opening York Rd to link with a new York Rd station on NLL ?
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Old September 10th, 2006, 08:01 PM   #834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty
Do you think there's a chance that links to the North London Line will be improved now following the announcement of the London Overground - perhaps rebuilding Camden Town to link with Camden Rd, and re-opening York Rd to link with a new York Rd station on NLL ?
I think York Road will possibly re-open thanks to the Kings Cross redevelopment (it is certainly being considered), but its still a distance away from the NLL, and moreover there are no NLL platforms there; there was a station there named Maiden lane which could be rebuilt I suppose.

I think Camden Road and Camden Town are quite simply too far apart; Camden Town is far better located for Camden, and it is unfeasible to relocate Camden Road as its on a viaduct (i.e. the line can't be diverted south the nearer Camden Town without huge disruption).

So a probable no to both as interchanges... The NLL is still well-connected regardless. Other options could be new platforms at North Acton (Central), re-opening Junction Road on the Gospel Oak - Barking line (Adjacent to Tufnell Park), and perhaps a station in the vicinity of Bollo lane to interchange with Chiswick Park station.
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Old September 13th, 2006, 08:10 PM   #835
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This thread must stay alive but unfortunately I have no good questions so Ill just say how are Tubeman?
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Old September 14th, 2006, 12:29 AM   #836
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Errr...Fine!
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Old September 14th, 2006, 06:43 PM   #837
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Yesterday and today I've had a bad experience on the Northern Line. Why is it that trains suddenly decide to take a different route and also why do they decide to suddenly terminate?

And would I be correct in saying that in 2009 when the Met/Circle/Hammersmith & City line trains are updated the East London line (which will be part of the new London overground) will have different trains?
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Old September 14th, 2006, 08:19 PM   #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRS
Yesterday and today I've had a bad experience on the Northern Line. Why is it that trains suddenly decide to take a different route and also why do they decide to suddenly terminate?

And would I be correct in saying that in 2009 when the Met/Circle/Hammersmith & City line trains are updated the East London line (which will be part of the new London overground) will have different trains?
During service disruption (e.g. Signal failure, 'One Under') generally all trains on a line will become equally late-running. Today I had a shitty day on the District Line where an earlier overrun of engineering works led to late running of (at worst) 1 hour 10 minutes still at lunchtime.

What 'Sevice Control' (Service Controllers and Signal Operators) have to strive for is for late-running trains to get back in their timetabled paths. The easiest way of doing this is turning a train short of its booked destination, obviously making time up. On the Northern Line the commonest examples of this are Edgware trains reversing at Colindale or Golders Green, High Barnet trains at Finchley Central, or Morden trains at Tooting Broadway or Kennington. Obviously all trains can't be handled in this way, or the service would effectively be suspended to a line's extremities, so perhaps only 1/3 or half of trains can be 'short-tripped'.

Last-minute diversions occur for 3 main reasons, again I'll tell you in the context of the Northern Line...

1) Delay: If a train is heading south as a 'via Bank' service and reaches Camden Town as a person jumps under a train at Angel, the Service Controller can divert it 'via Charing Cross' to avoid the incident, ditto a High Barnet train being diverted to Edgware or vice versa.

2) Incorrect 'TD' (Train Description)... The trains transmit information about their destination via the track to the Control Room, this is what gives the information appearing on the 'Dot matrix' displays on platforms. Sometimes the message can get confused or disappear (Incorrect TD), which means that you might board what you thought was an Edgware train in good faith (because the dot matrix said so) when in fact it was High Barnet all along. My advice to anyone using the Northern Line is always get the first train and change at Camden or Kennington, you never know if the destination will change or what might go wrong!

3) Reformation of service: This is a little complicated...

Believe it or not all trains run to a timetable, so have allocated 'paths'. Let's say there's a High Barnet train every 5 minutes, but the service is running 30 minutes late so every train is running 30 minutes behind where it should be. If the Duty Manager (i.e. me) has a driver just starting their day's work who wants a High Barnet train, instead of waiting 30 minutes and being late, they can take the next High Barnet train and 'Reform' its number into the one they want, so its on time. Its not that striaghtforward though, as this alone means you now have 2 trains carrying the same number (one on time and one 30 minutes late), so the Duty manager needs to 'Reform' the original late running train back into the number of the train the driver picked up, usually short-tripping it so it too ends up on time.

What usually occurs is a 'chain' of several reforms with drivers dropping back onto different trains behind and changing numbers and / or short-tripping to recover the timetabled service. If you think it sounds complicated, try doing it for real!

This can change destinations if the reformed train is going somewhere different to the original, Earl's Court where I work is notorious for this.

Re: East London Line trains, the contract has been awarded to Bombardier to build the new fleet. I don't think they're the same as the S-Stock on the rest of Subsurface lines, but very similar.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 08:21 AM   #839
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I really don't understand why London Underground wants to "keep" to a schedule. No passengers ever use a timetable when using a metro - people just turn up and take the next train. That's the whole point of a metro system.

So, if trains started 1 hr 10 minutes late due to works overrun, then just start the services running from that point on.

I guess it gets harder with networks like London which has multiple branches. One thing a lot easier with networks that consider each branch a seperate line I would imagine, is that people know instantly what train they are getting and where it will go.
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Old September 15th, 2006, 09:30 AM   #840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
I really don't understand why London Underground wants to "keep" to a schedule. No passengers ever use a timetable when using a metro - people just turn up and take the next train. That's the whole point of a metro system.

So, if trains started 1 hr 10 minutes late due to works overrun, then just start the services running from that point on.

I guess it gets harder with networks like London which has multiple branches. One thing a lot easier with networks that consider each branch a seperate line I would imagine, is that people know instantly what train they are getting and where it will go.
What you have to factor in is the drivers though!

We can't just say "turn up when you feel like it and take whatever train comes in first!" to them, there needs to be some sort of structure to their working day. Moreover the first & last trains have to run in specific paths, and bearing in mind how complex some lines are there are numerous first & last trains. Without a timetable the provision of a regular service to the Western branches of the District Line would go to pot, the frequencies to Richmond and Ealing are only 8-10 minutes, so even a slight oversight could result in a 20 minute gap. Trains also have to rotate between stabling on sidings with no overhaul and cleaning facilities (e.g. Parson's Green, Triangle or Barking) and overhaul depots (Ealing Common and Upminster) otherwise they might go for weeks without getting washed or overhauled.

I was shocked when I first started working for LUL and discovered there was a timetable (always presuming it was some sort of free-for-all), but once you actually start working in the railway environment you appreciate how vital a timetable is. It may seem irrelevant to a customer on the Piccadilly Line at Holborn where there's a train every 2 minutes, but it makes sense when you consider running regular services to a line's branches or dealing with the maintenance of trains or structuring the workforce's day as highlighted above.
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