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Old September 15th, 2006, 12:19 PM   #841
Justme
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Good point Tubeman.

But then, would a computerised system with driverless trains still need a timetable?
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Old September 15th, 2006, 04:49 PM   #842
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Is it a benefit or a drawback to have a service as a single line (like Vic, or Hamm&City?). I know you agree that the District is perhaps a little too complex, but considering that there are several metro-systems in the world that advertise (nearly) all of their services as a single (coloured) line, even though they share the same tracks, and could very well be considered as branches off of a single line - why is this still not the case with say the Northern or the District? (The length of that last sentence would have made even a german blush . Hopefully I didn't get too confusing)
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Old September 26th, 2006, 05:37 AM   #843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Good point Tubeman.

But then, would a computerised system with driverless trains still need a timetable?
First and last trains would still need to be advertised, unless of course we're in real dreamland and contemplate a 24-hour service.

I suppose trains need to be identified so still need 'set numbers', and therefore by extension its handy to know where trains are, or are supposed to be, at any given time.

I suppose a fully automated and unstaffed system could get by without a timetable, but neither is ever going to happen to LUL realistically.
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Old September 26th, 2006, 06:10 AM   #844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yako
Is it a benefit or a drawback to have a service as a single line (like Vic, or Hamm&City?). I know you agree that the District is perhaps a little too complex, but considering that there are several metro-systems in the world that advertise (nearly) all of their services as a single (coloured) line, even though they share the same tracks, and could very well be considered as branches off of a single line - why is this still not the case with say the Northern or the District? (The length of that last sentence would have made even a german blush . Hopefully I didn't get too confusing)
I suppose it can be both a benefit and a drawback...

As I have already mentioned re: the Northern Line, the complexity is a blessing when something (e.g. suicide) blocks either the City or Charing Cross route across Central London, as all trains can be diverted down the unaffected route (although limited capacity and the fact that via Bank is 7 minutes longer than via Charing Cross mean its not quite that simple). Ditto the District Line... signal failure at Gunnersbury? No problem, just divert Richmond trains to Ealing Broadway until we get the all-clear. One under at Barons Court? divert all the Richmonds and Ealings to Wimbledon... If they were all separate lines and drivers were restricted to one line only then you wouldn't be able to carry out such diversions.

The other extreme is the Victoria Line which is a 'straight line' with no branches and only one service (Brixton < > Walthamstow), its far easier to maintain a regular service, but if something goes wrong (e.g. suicide, broken rail) then the entire line is effectively shut down until its resolved, as there's no room for such flexibility. If there's a major incident at somewhere like King's Cross then the line will split into 2 separate services either side (Walthamstow < > Highbury and Warren Street < > Brixton), but the southern portion, as it doesn't run through the only depot (Seven Sisters), can't keep operating indefinitely as the drivers will start requiring relief at some point (only 4.25 hours continuous driving is allowed without a break). In short, there's no way of diverting trains around or away from and incident on a 'simple' line.

The fundamental reason why lines like the Metropolitan and District are depicted as they are (single lines with a mass of different branches) is history... They were originally independent railway companies who built their own tunnels and routes 140 years ago, the way they are depicted even today is a hangover from this... pretty illogical, and quite confusing.

The Metropolitan 'Line' is bad enough today, but until 1990 the Hammersmith & City Line was shown as part of the Metropolitan Line, and up until the 1980's the East London Line was too... so even 20-ish years ago the Metropolitan Line on the Tube Map had 10 different termini! (Chesham, Amersham, Watford, Uxbridge, Hammersmith, Aldgate, Shoreditch, New Cross, New Cross Gate & Barking).
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Old September 26th, 2006, 11:46 AM   #845
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^ Naturally, this is a good point. There certainly is this advantage to split lines, presuming of cause that the breakage occurs at the point where it splits in the middle.

Of cause, should we really be basing a service on the possibility of failure, or trying to make sure the failure donít occur. Most other cities have single lines from what I can see, so how do they cope with suicides? Or is this much more of a problem on the LU. Of cause, line faults are a different problem, and the age of many of these lines can cause problems. But if they were converted to dedicated separate lines, would the added simplicity cause fewer problems?
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Old September 28th, 2006, 06:06 AM   #846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
^ Naturally, this is a good point. There certainly is this advantage to split lines, presuming of cause that the breakage occurs at the point where it splits in the middle.

Of cause, should we really be basing a service on the possibility of failure, or trying to make sure the failure donít occur. Most other cities have single lines from what I can see, so how do they cope with suicides? Or is this much more of a problem on the LU. Of cause, line faults are a different problem, and the age of many of these lines can cause problems. But if they were converted to dedicated separate lines, would the added simplicity cause fewer problems?
I tend to think that the benefits of simplicity of operations far outwieghs any possible benefit of flexibility from having sprawling, complex lines like the Metropolitan, District and Northern.

However, even if the District Line were split into its 5 constituent services they'd generally be running over the same rails and so unless some distinctive way of differenciating trains was introduced it would still be pretty confusing, and moreover the reality is that instead of a suicide or signal failure screwing up one line, it would screw up several!

The only line which could be realistically 'split' and simplified is the Northern as we've already discussed a couple of pages back... The huge sprawling entity that is the Subsurface network cannot, as with a couple of exceptions its double-track throughout so different 'lines' already share the same metals as it is. Subdividing the lines into constituent routes would be nothing more than a renaming exercise with no tangible service benefits.

Your underpinning point is exactly right though: its far more important to worry about preventing delays than it is to worry about how to cope with them once they've occurred.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 02:18 AM   #847
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*cough*

On page two

Ask me more
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Old October 14th, 2006, 07:31 AM   #848
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If you could think of one line that the Underground is missing that, if fully constructed from scratch would make the network as complete as could possibly be, where would you put it?
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Old October 14th, 2006, 01:28 PM   #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui View Post
If you could think of one line that the Underground is missing that, if fully constructed from scratch would make the network as complete as could possibly be, where would you put it?
Oooh thank you, you've allowed me to expand on a childhood passion I had: Designing new tube lines! Many an A to Z road atlas has been defaced by me in my time, scrawling new lines across the pages.

I have several in mind, one of my favoured ones is a new deep-level Circle Line which would allow the current Circle Line service to be withdrawn, in turn allowing higher frequencies on the District, Metropolitan and Hammermsith & City Lines and the removal of the problematic flat junctions at Gloucester Road and Tower Hill.

It would follow a slightly altered alignment to make it more 'useful', it would essentially link all of the main termini whilst interchanging with each line it crosses thus:

Paddington > Baker Street > Euston > King's Cross St Pancras > Angel > Old Street > Liverpool Street > Fenchurch Street / Tower Hill > London Bridge > Waterloo > Victoria > Knightsbridge > Lancaster Gate > Paddington (again!)

Whereas the current Circle Line is a bit of a lumbering beast and rather a crap way of getting from one side of London to the other, this new Circle Line has long runs between stations and could hit 100km/h in places (like the Jubilee), e.g. Victoria to Tower Hill in only 3 stops as opposed to 9 on the current Circle / District.

It could be engineered for maximum capacity from the off: 10-car articulated trains with maximum doorways and minimum seating, platform edge doors, fully automatic... I've even planned where the depot will be: On railway land at King's Cross which can then be rafted over and redeveloped.

I have some more in mind which I'll share later, I have to get ready for Arsenal v Watford now
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Old October 17th, 2006, 03:47 PM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post

I have some more in mind which I'll share later, I have to get ready for Arsenal v Watford now
Didn't want this to slip onto page 2.

Do you have your other ideas for lines ?

Incidentally, there's been more talk recently about extending the Bakerloo to Camberwell perhaps via Bricklayer's Arms. Apparently TFL are looking into it (according to Southwark News). What do you think the chances are ?
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Old October 17th, 2006, 07:24 PM   #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty View Post
Didn't want this to slip onto page 2.

Do you have your other ideas for lines ?

Incidentally, there's been more talk recently about extending the Bakerloo to Camberwell perhaps via Bricklayer's Arms. Apparently TFL are looking into it (according to Southwark News). What do you think the chances are ?
Probably very low considering they're struggling to build about 200m of track to link the Watford Metropolitan Branch to the disused Croxley Green Branch. Admittedly it entails quite a hefty viaduct across the Grand Union canal, but I'm sure its still a damned sight cheaper than extending the Bakerloo to Camberwell which would all be deep-bored tube.

Another idea I have for new lines are:

A new East-West Line

Sharing with SWT from a Kingston terminus to Richmond (i.e. via Teddington, Twickenham etc), then taking the Richmond Branch off the District Line (allowing frequency increase to Ealing Broadway). The new works would commence just East of Gunnersbury Junction, where the new alignment would descend into Tube tunnel stopping as follows:

Turnham Green (With Piccadilly Line now stopping all day)
Goldhawk Road
Shepherd's Bush Central Line (cross-platform interchange)
High Street Kensington
Royal Albert Hall
Knightsbridge (cross-platform interchange Piccadilly Line)
Green Park (cross-platform interchange Jubilee Line)
- Then taking over abandoned Jubilee Line tunnel -
Charing Cross
Aldwych
- New tunnel again -
City Thameslink
Bank / Monument
Liverpool Street
Whitechapel
Limehouse
Canary Wharf
Crossharbour
Greenwich
Lewisham
- Then rising up to ground level and taking over Southeastern's Hayes Branch -

Kingston to Hayes... quite a long old way, of course with a new tunnel longer than Crossrail there's no chance. However, I think the line does provide a much needed additional east-West route across Central London... there are currently only 3 routes really.

I'll post a couple more as I remember them
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Old October 17th, 2006, 10:07 PM   #852
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Since I'm living here now, and travel on the tube a lot, I can actually ask you questions now.

I notice these weird posts with what looks like a camera facing down and to the post on them at quite a lot of stations. I mostly travel on the Met to Uxbridge and stations like Ruislip, Ruislip Manor and Eastcote have them. What are these things?

I can't find any pictures of these things, I hope you know what I mean...

I also noticed that the handlebars in the Metropolitan, Victoria, District, Bakerloo, Piccadilly, Circle and Waterloo and City lines all have the colour of the actual line. Why don't they do that with the other ones? I understand that Met and ELL, and Circle, Wimbleware and H&C use the same stock, so it's not an option there, but why don't they seem to have it for the Jubilee and Northern line?

Last edited by sweek; October 17th, 2006 at 10:15 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 12:25 AM   #853
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You mean a bit like this - the cameras along the platform....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...be_station.jpg

They're for the driver (Tubeman will probably add more detail as usual ) I think...basically, train comes in - right to the end of the platform. Where the driver stops, there is a bank of tv screens (you can't really see the detail, but you can see the screens at the end of the platform in the pic above), which show the CCTV footage so that he can see what **** made a dive for the closing doors - I've heard it before where the driver has said - "could the person with the yellow coat, yes you, move into the train".

I can only thing I can think of is that it comes down to Tube Lines and some agreement of the interiors?
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Old October 18th, 2006, 12:30 AM   #854
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Tubeman,

I'm not going to read through this beast, so apologies if this has been answered before. i'm wondering what your thought on Crossrail are? Best option for the price? Chance of phase one happening? Two? Three? What problems will it solve, if any? All your thoughts, please!
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Old October 18th, 2006, 02:10 AM   #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_-_taylor View Post
You mean a bit like this - the cameras along the platform....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...be_station.jpg
No, not like that... I'll try and take a picture tomorrow. I guess my explanation does sound pretty vague.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 02:44 AM   #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek
Since I'm living here now, and travel on the tube a lot, I can actually ask you questions now.

I notice these weird posts with what looks like a camera facing down and to the post on them at quite a lot of stations. I mostly travel on the Met to Uxbridge and stations like Ruislip, Ruislip Manor and Eastcote have them. What are these things?

I can't find any pictures of these things, I hope you know what I mean...
Nick has already answered this one for me

The official name for the system is 'OPO' or 'One Person Operation'... the CCTV cameras / monitors do the job of the Guard who used to sit at the back of the train, it allows the driver to see the platform as he closes the doors and pulls away, but is less safe than a Guard as the instant the train moves off the cameras are not in view. The exceptions are the Central, Northern and Jubilee Lines where the images are beamed into the driver's cab, so they watch the entire train depart the platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek
I also noticed that the handlebars in the Metropolitan, Victoria, District, Bakerloo, Piccadilly, Circle and Waterloo and City lines all have the colour of the actual line. Why don't they do that with the other ones? I understand that Met and ELL, and Circle, Wimbleware and H&C use the same stock, so it's not an option there, but why don't they seem to have it for the Jubilee and Northern line?
The DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) stipulates that the grabrails must be visible for the partially sighted, therefore Black (Northern) and Grey (Jubilee) aren't bright enough colours so they are Yellow instead.

I don't know if the C Stocks (Circle / Wimbleware / H&C) have yellow for Circle or if it was just decided to choose the most visible colour, as these were the very first painted grabrails from the early 1990's refurb (all stocks had bare steel rails until then).
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Old October 18th, 2006, 02:55 AM   #857
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No, not like that... I'll try and take a picture tomorrow. I guess my explanation does sound pretty vague.
Oh ok, not like in that pic...

They may well just be the new type of Public Address speakers, we have them at Earls Court: Grey poles like CCTV poles with rectangular boxes at the top with angled with the long edge facing the floor at about 35 degrees from vertical?

Look carefully along the centres of each platform... you can see the posts about 3m tall and spaced every 20m or so:

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Old October 18th, 2006, 03:02 AM   #858
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Tubeman,

I'm not going to read through this beast, so apologies if this has been answered before. i'm wondering what your thought on Crossrail are? Best option for the price? Chance of phase one happening? Two? Three? What problems will it solve, if any? All your thoughts, please!
I'd love to see it built as the more is most definitely the merrier with London railways, but I seriouly doubt its worth the £10bn price tag or whatever it is.

I'd say phase 1 is 50:50... If it could be achieveable in time for the Olympics then it would be a definite goer, but as it can't be delievered until afterwards anyway there's less of a political incentive to getting it built.

Crossrail 2 is dependent on Crossrail 1 getting built, so I'm not even going to entertain the thought yet.

It will alleviate congestion on the Tube's West-East routes and provide a direct link from Heathrow to Central London proper (Paddington is peripheral), The City and Canary Wharf. It will also cause a huge boom in the Thames Valley and areas of outer West London that are currently quite deprived like Hanwell, Southall and Hayes, as well as making Reading and Slough into London suburbs (effectively).
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Old October 18th, 2006, 12:19 PM   #859
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Yeah those things at Earl's Court are what I'm talking about. Thanks!
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Old October 18th, 2006, 02:31 PM   #860
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Yeah those things at Earl's Court are what I'm talking about. Thanks!

No probs

I amit they do look quite strange, but the sound quality is excellent
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