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Old October 18th, 2006, 10:51 PM   #861
pricemazda
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Can you tell me why there isn't an apostrophe in Barons Court?
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Old October 19th, 2006, 04:26 AM   #862
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Now that I don't live in London, I'm just wondering what you think of subway systems outside of London. Which ones do you like travelling on, which ones you think provide a good service in their circumstances, etc.?
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Old October 20th, 2006, 01:55 AM   #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda View Post
Can you tell me why there isn't an apostrophe in Barons Court?
Pass. Non-possessive plural I presume?

Earl's Court = Court of the Earl
Barons Court = Court named after some Barons

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Old October 20th, 2006, 01:59 AM   #864
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Originally Posted by samsonyuen View Post
Now that I don't live in London, I'm just wondering what you think of subway systems outside of London. Which ones do you like travelling on, which ones you think provide a good service in their circumstances, etc.?
Hong Kong and Singapore are excellent: air con, efficient, fast, simple... But that's because they were built benefitting from the mistakes made by older systems.

The other ones I've been on are NYC, Paris, Berlin and Barcelona... all 'old' networks. They all have a nice historic feel, all iconic in their own ways. Paris is probably the best of the 'old' networks, although I find The Tube better staffed and more welcoming.

Sydney and Melbourne I'd consider more commuter rail with a bit of tunnel as opposed to proper metros.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 10:49 PM   #865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Another idea I have for new lines are:

A new East-West Line

Sharing with SWT from a Kingston terminus to Richmond (i.e. via Teddington, Twickenham etc), then taking the Richmond Branch off the District Line (allowing frequency increase to Ealing Broadway). The new works would commence just East of Gunnersbury Junction, where the new alignment would descend into Tube tunnel stopping as follows:

Turnham Green (With Piccadilly Line now stopping all day)
Goldhawk Road
Shepherd's Bush Central Line (cross-platform interchange)
High Street Kensington
Royal Albert Hall
Knightsbridge (cross-platform interchange Piccadilly Line)
Green Park (cross-platform interchange Jubilee Line)
- Then taking over abandoned Jubilee Line tunnel -
Charing Cross
Aldwych
- New tunnel again -
City Thameslink
Bank / Monument
Liverpool Street
Whitechapel
Limehouse
Canary Wharf
Crossharbour
Greenwich
Lewisham
- Then rising up to ground level and taking over Southeastern's Hayes Branch -

Kingston to Hayes... quite a long old way, of course with a new tunnel longer than Crossrail there's no chance. However, I think the line does provide a much needed additional east-West route across Central London... there are currently only 3 routes really.

I'll post a couple more as I remember them
What a great idea for a line although do you think it would be better going down from Knightsbridge to Victoria and then along to Charing Cross ? I know that makes less financial sense because of the lines already there but Victoria is so overcrowded and could do with a direct link to Canary Wharf. I often wonder why they don't consider extending the Tower Hill branch of the DLR under the river, down Tower Bridge Road to the Elephant and then up through Kennington to Victoria. The quickest route from Victoria to the City is via South London if you go as the crow flies.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 10:51 PM   #866
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I'd love to see it built as the more is most definitely the merrier with London railways, but I seriouly doubt its worth the £10bn price tag or whatever it is.

I'd say phase 1 is 50:50... If it could be achieveable in time for the Olympics then it would be a definite goer, but as it can't be delievered until afterwards anyway there's less of a political incentive to getting it built.

Crossrail 2 is dependent on Crossrail 1 getting built, so I'm not even going to entertain the thought yet.

It will alleviate congestion on the Tube's West-East routes and provide a direct link from Heathrow to Central London proper (Paddington is peripheral), The City and Canary Wharf. It will also cause a huge boom in the Thames Valley and areas of outer West London that are currently quite deprived like Hanwell, Southall and Hayes, as well as making Reading and Slough into London suburbs (effectively).
Do you think Thameslink 2000 will be an excuse not to build Crossrail ?
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Old October 21st, 2006, 12:45 AM   #867
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I really like the Paris Metro too, but unlike the London system, there are a lot of stairs, and few escalators (at least it seemed like it)!
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Old October 21st, 2006, 12:48 AM   #868
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@Smarty: well, since you pitched the idea, now it is.

(Some people would use any argument to prevent it, right?)
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Old October 21st, 2006, 02:50 AM   #869
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Do you think Thameslink 2000 will be an excuse not to build Crossrail ?

No, not at all... Crossrail is definitely West-East while Thameslink 2000 is definitely North-South... They do not compete at all.
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Old October 21st, 2006, 02:12 PM   #870
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They do not compete at all.
Except for funding
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Old October 21st, 2006, 03:52 PM   #871
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Except for funding
Naturally... I was talking in terms of actual 'route'
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 03:55 PM   #872
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I was just in London earlier and was shocked when I first walked down a Tube station. It was dilapidated compared to Singapore, Hongkong, or Bangkok. But as said before, it is an older system, the first system, in fact?

But what I wonder is why TfL or whoever is in charge not overhaul the system? Especially the Piccadilly line, which is crowded and the trains are claustrophobic.

One thing they should never change, however, is the stern and deep voice that says "Mind the gap."
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 06:00 PM   #873
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thainotts - You have to remember, the London rail network is massive - the London Underground covers 408km, but the total amount of heavy rail (ie no light rail, trams, etc...) in London is 1,196km+, that isn't track km, but actual route km. Compare that to the the 140km for Hong Kong, 90km for Singapore and the 19km for Bangkok.....you could combine all three cities, and still have only 1/5th of the route km of London, hence why its understandable as to why the network isn't spotless. That isn't however to say that its a wreck - most stations are clean, others spotless, and a minority are in a horrific condition (however this could be in part due to the station actually being modernised and not down to a literally lack of maintenance)

The network is however despite its age, complexity and size still remarkable. I doubt any other city could handle such a network as well as London has, it suits me fine and I wouldn't want any other network.

I should had however that it does need improvement and it is getting this - more investment, new rolling stock, all stations receiving staff, higher frequencies, being cleaned and modernised, new lines, yet more stations........
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Old October 24th, 2006, 01:03 AM   #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thainotts View Post
I was just in London earlier and was shocked when I first walked down a Tube station. It was dilapidated compared to Singapore, Hongkong, or Bangkok. But as said before, it is an older system, the first system, in fact?

But what I wonder is why TfL or whoever is in charge not overhaul the system? Especially the Piccadilly line, which is crowded and the trains are claustrophobic.

One thing they should never change, however, is the stern and deep voice that says "Mind the gap."
All three networks you mention are over 100 years younger than The Tube, and were all built with the benefit of hindsight of looking at networks like The Tube (in fact many were built with the assistance of London Underground International).

Its not a fair comparison, to be honest.

Everything is being overhauled... Enormous investment is flowing into stations, trains, track and signals. The Piccadilly Line trains were recently refurbished and are bright, clean, and comfortable inside... One thing they'll never be is anything but cramped in the rush hour, but the line carries upwards of half a million people a day and was built 100 years ago. The tunnels are never going to get any wider nor the platforms longer.
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Old October 24th, 2006, 01:43 PM   #875
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You mentioned London Underground International there. Is that a fully-fledged subsidiary that consults on schemes, or is it just the name for any work that LU do on an ad hoc basis?
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Old October 24th, 2006, 02:41 PM   #876
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I was idly doodling on a scrap of paper this morning (not enough work to do!), and drew the main London termini as compass points on a circle:

South-West - Waterloo
West - Paddington
North-West - Euston
North - St. Pancras
North-East - Kings Cross
East - Liverpool Street
South-East - Victoria
South - London Bridge (yes, the last two are a bit "dubious").

North and South are already connected by Thameslink.

West and East are to be connected by Crossrail Line 1.

North-East and South-East might eventually be connected by Crossrail Line 2, though I'm sure I remember a pie-in-the sky scheme proposed by Sea Containers when they owned (or were about to, or wanted to - I'm a bit sketchy on the details) both GNER and South West Trains which would connect the two - that's South-West and North-East covered.

So my question is, have there ever been any plans to connect Euston with either Waterloo or Victoria, just so that I can complete my weird looking cross-London diagram?
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Old October 24th, 2006, 03:29 PM   #877
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Quote:
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All three networks you mention are over 100 years younger than The Tube, and were all built with the benefit of hindsight of looking at networks like The Tube (in fact many were built with the assistance of London Underground International).

Its not a fair comparison, to be honest.

Everything is being overhauled... Enormous investment is flowing into stations, trains, track and signals. The Piccadilly Line trains were recently refurbished and are bright, clean, and comfortable inside... One thing they'll never be is anything but cramped in the rush hour, but the line carries upwards of half a million people a day and was built 100 years ago. The tunnels are never going to get any wider nor the platforms longer.
Tubeman - all this improvement to the London Underground is being done via public-private partnerships (PPPs) is it not? I've read that it would have been cheaper if the government had simply funded it themselves, as governments can borrow money (if necessary, in order to fund the work) at lower rates of interest than the private sector. Is the way they are doing it the cheapest and most cost-effective? What's your view?
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Old October 24th, 2006, 05:32 PM   #878
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Tubeman: I think it is the masses of ad posters that add to the perception of crampedness and dirt (though the stations are actually quite clean) that foreign visitors experience when first riding the tube. Are there any plans to remove the ads from the stations? How much revenue does LU get from advertising in stations?
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Old October 24th, 2006, 06:35 PM   #879
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You mentioned London Underground International there. Is that a fully-fledged subsidiary that consults on schemes, or is it just the name for any work that LU do on an ad hoc basis?
It was a fully-fledged arm of London Underground, but it was wound up a few years ago. I met the former head (by chance) on holiday in Thailand... It sounded like an amazing job: travelling around the world helping cities build their metros. He'd had a hand in (if I remember correctly) Taipei, Bangkok, Hong Kong and Singapore, plus some in Latin America. Amazing!
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Old October 24th, 2006, 06:53 PM   #880
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I was idly doodling on a scrap of paper this morning (not enough work to do!), and drew the main London termini as compass points on a circle:

South-West - Waterloo
West - Paddington
North-West - Euston
North - St. Pancras
North-East - Kings Cross
East - Liverpool Street
South-East - Victoria
South - London Bridge (yes, the last two are a bit "dubious").

North and South are already connected by Thameslink.

West and East are to be connected by Crossrail Line 1.

North-East and South-East might eventually be connected by Crossrail Line 2, though I'm sure I remember a pie-in-the sky scheme proposed by Sea Containers when they owned (or were about to, or wanted to - I'm a bit sketchy on the details) both GNER and South West Trains which would connect the two - that's South-West and North-East covered.

So my question is, have there ever been any plans to connect Euston with either Waterloo or Victoria, just so that I can complete my weird looking cross-London diagram?
Not that I'm aware of, but its to me a very 'obvious' Crossrail option... One that I'd thought of before myself.

Milton Keynes is booming and there is great growth potential in the Tring - Leighton Buzzard - MK corridor which would benefit greatly from a Crossrail-style service beyond Euston. I'd be more in favour of a connection with the C2C line myself for the following reasons:

- Both systems are 25kv AC electrified, so no need for dual-voltage trains

- Customers from the Euston line get access to The City without changing, likewise C2C customers get access to the West End without changing

- Strain can be taken off the extremely congested Fenchurch Street

- To take the last point a step further, if all C2C services are diverted via this 'Crossrail 3', then the point from the tunnel entrance (probably in the Bromley-by-Bow area) to Fenchurch Street could be given over to allow DLR 4-tracking to Limehouse with perhaps the redundant bit of C2C (Limehouse to Bromley-by-Bow) becoming a new DLR branch. The 'slow' tracks between Fenchurch Street and Limehouse (Tower Gateway could be abandoned) could have internediate stops opened either side of Shadwell to serve the local area... This would in fact be a re-opening of two long-abandoned mainline stations at Leman Street and Cannon Street Road. Burdett Road could also be re-opened on the Limehouse - Bromley section.

The new tunnel for this Crossrail 3 would start just north of Euston with platforms linking the current Warren Street and Euston Square stations together (as opposed to under Euston proper) to form a new station complex served by the Northern, Victoria, Circle, H&C and Metropolitan Lines. Next stop could be Holborn, then City Thameslink, Bank, Tower Hill / Fenchurch Street, Shadwell, Limehouse, then emerging West of Bromley-by-Bow to join the existing C2C route. Its probably impractical for the tunnel to begin any further West as getting the C2C down from viaduct level to tunnel level on the approach to Fenchurch Street would be problematic.
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