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Old October 24th, 2006, 06:56 PM   #881
Tubeman
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Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
Tubeman - all this improvement to the London Underground is being done via public-private partnerships (PPPs) is it not? I've read that it would have been cheaper if the government had simply funded it themselves, as governments can borrow money (if necessary, in order to fund the work) at lower rates of interest than the private sector. Is the way they are doing it the cheapest and most cost-effective? What's your view?
Yes it is, and yes it is a grotesque waste of money in the long run.

The issues are balancing the books in the short term by the government, and transferring the risk to the private sector. Neither of which are valid enough reasons for PPP in my opinion.
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Old October 24th, 2006, 06:59 PM   #882
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Tubeman: I think it is the masses of ad posters that add to the perception of crampedness and dirt (though the stations are actually quite clean) that foreign visitors experience when first riding the tube. Are there any plans to remove the ads from the stations? How much revenue does LU get from advertising in stations?
I doubt the revenue from each poster is much, but in combination they probably pull in a fair amount. Maybe I'm used to them, but I like them... They make the platforms more colourful and gives you something to look at whilst waiting for a train.
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Old October 24th, 2006, 07:00 PM   #883
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What is the average temperature in the Tube's in Winter (generally) and Summer. I've been in the tubes in summer. and its just unbearable. Will there be new tubes in the future with A/C??? And what's all the work going on at King's X area?
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Old October 24th, 2006, 07:13 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by macon4ever View Post
What is the average temperature in the Tube's in Winter (generally) and Summer. I've been in the tubes in summer. and its just unbearable. Will there be new tubes in the future with A/C??? And what's all the work going on at King's X area?
The Tube is in the region of 5-10C warmer than street level I believe, meaning when we get 35C+ in the summer (increasingly common) temperatures on some deep-level lines (the Victoria and Bakerloo are especially hot) could exceed 45C and extremely humid.

I also seem to recall being told that for every 2 minutes a packed Tube carriage is stationary underground the temperature rises by 1C, meaning a 10-minute delay on a hot day could send temperatures in the 50's Celcius!

The new SSR fleet of trains (S Stock) will have A/C, running on the District, Hammermsith & City, Circle and Metropolitan Lines. This is possible as the routes were originally built for steam trains and so there are vents for heat to escape the tunnels. This also means these are currently the least hot lines (but still stifling on a hot summer's day, so its welcome regardless). Experiments are being carried out for a new groundwater air cooling system for the deep-level tube stations (groundwater is around 19C), but the trains can't get A/C as there's nowhere for the exhaust heat to vent.

King's Cross is being hugely redeveloped in connection with the opening of the Eurostar terminal and new Thameslink platforms at St Pancras next Summer. The huge new ticket hall / concourse has opened (one of them) with more to follow, and the tatty and gloomy platforms on the subsurface and tube lines are all getting a major facelift. It'll be an amazing interchange when its finished.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 01:37 AM   #885
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about the International Straford Station

hey tubeman

i was wondering about something the International Straford station is it going to open the same time as the rest of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link or a little later

and what do you think of this massive project that london is doing not only for london but the olympics in 2012 what is your opion for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link?
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Old October 25th, 2006, 02:46 AM   #886
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hey tubeman

i was wondering what is the biggest Train Station terminal in the london area i know some but what is the best train terminal?
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Old October 25th, 2006, 04:48 PM   #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It was a fully-fledged arm of London Underground, but it was wound up a few years ago. I met the former head (by chance) on holiday in Thailand... It sounded like an amazing job: travelling around the world helping cities build their metros. He'd had a hand in (if I remember correctly) Taipei, Bangkok, Hong Kong and Singapore, plus some in Latin America. Amazing!
I didn't know London Underground International specifically had a hand in Singapore's MRT. I didn't even know London Underground International existed. Pardon my ignorance. All I knew was that Singapore looked up to the UK and other metro systems for advice etc for transport integration etc and a few years back (in 2001) adopting the LU's tube map for Singapore and editing it a little. haha. Great map design. Clean, sleek, informative.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 10:16 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
hey tubeman

i was wondering about something the International Straford station is it going to open the same time as the rest of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link or a little later

and what do you think of this massive project that london is doing not only for london but the olympics in 2012 what is your opion for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link?
Stratford International won't open until 2010 at the earliest, possibly not until the 2012 Olympics. Its bizarre, the station is structurally complete... I don't really know the reasoning behind this. I know the DLR extension to the station isn't due to open until 2010, but even without it its only a couple of hundred metres from the existing Stratford with 2 Tube lines, DLR, and numerous Network Rail destinations... so its not as if its not connected.

I welcome any investment in London's railways, although its not of enormous benefit to Londoners per se. It had to happen; the passage of Eurostars crawling across South London suburban lines was an embarassment to this country. I found the extravangant 19km tunnels from Dagenham all the way to St Pancras a little excessive: Long before the CTRL was proposed I plotted my own route on an atlas, which followed an almost identical route from the North Downs under the Thames at Northfleet but then differed by having a more southerly alignment into London.

My alignment was at surface level, crossing (as then) undeveloped brownfield land on the north bank of the Thames through Dagenham, Creekmouth, Beckton, then along the northern edge of the Royal Docks (roughly where the DLR Beckton branch runs today), through Leamouth to a station serving Canary Wharf (almost exactly where the proposed Crossrail station will be). The line then descended into a far shorter tunnel with a station beneath The City, with the route then turning north and splitting to two stations below King's Cross and Euston with the lines then surfacing to join the WCML and ECML giving direct access to The Midlands, Northern England and Scotland.

Firstly the amount of tunnelling involved would be a fraction of the current 19km pair, but secondly the CTRL would have stations directly serving Canary Wharf and The City and services would continue to destinations like Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool and perhaps beyond to Scotland (although the uncompetitiveness of rail from Scotland to the Continent in terms of time probably precluded this from being financially viable).

Sadly though I'm not a transport planner, so it wasn't to be... And now a lot of the land along my route has been redeveloped.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 10:32 PM   #889
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hey tubeman

i was wondering what is the biggest Train Station terminal in the london area i know some but what is the best train terminal?
London's biggest station is Waterloo on the South Bank, it was built by the London & South-Western Railway in 1848 (although it has been rebuilt / expanded several times since). It offers mainline destinations from platforms 1-19 across South-west London and the West and Southwest of England, being the terminus for important towns and cities like Portsmouth, Southampton, Basingstoke, Bournemouth and Poole as well as offering services as far north as Reading and as far west as Exeter.

Platforms 20-24 are the Eurostar platforms offering trains to Paris, Brussels, Lille as well as seasonal ski trains to The Alps, these are to become redundant next year when all services are diverted to St Pancras and will probably be given over to the longer-distance South-west Trains services to Exeter, Poole, Southampton and Portsmouth.

Below the 24 Mainline platforms are a further 8 Tube platforms on the Waterloo & City, Northern, Bakerloo and Jubilee Lines, giving 32 in total.

Immediately to the north is Waterloo East, a through station on the Mainline ex-Charing Cross, which could be considered as part of the same complex. Here the 4 platforms are 'numbered' a, b, c & d so as not to cause confusion with platforms at Waterloo 'proper'.

Therefore the entire complex could be reasonably considered to have 36 platforms.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 10:39 PM   #890
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Regarding 'best', I'd say St Pancras when it opens next year, but Paddington, Liverpool Street, Waterloo, King's Cross and Victoria are all magnificent.

London Bridge, Euston, Cannon Street and Blackfriars have all been ruined by 20th century redevelopment.

Charing Cross and Fenchurch Street are similar in that they have both been hugely redeveloped, but quite tastefully, with the original facades preserved and new offices built above. The only thing I dislike about this practice is it makes the platforms quite gloomy and claustrophobic.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 10:53 PM   #891
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Quote:
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Below the 24 Mainline platforms are a further 8 Tube platforms on the Waterloo & City, Northern, Bakerloo and Jubilee Lines, giving 32 in total.
8 tube platforms?

2 Bakerloo
2 Northern
2 Jubilee
1 W&C ... Total 7: unless I'm missing something?
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Old October 26th, 2006, 01:13 AM   #892
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According to CULG, there are two platforms on the W&C at Bank. I can't remember from those two or three times I've used it.
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Old October 26th, 2006, 01:30 AM   #893
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8 tube platforms?

2 Bakerloo
2 Northern
2 Jubilee
1 W&C ... Total 7: unless I'm missing something?
2 on the W&C... one for boarding only, the other for alighting only. Trains arrive ex-Bank, detrain, proceed into the tunnel beyond, then reverse back into the Bank-bound platform and pick up passengers.
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Old October 26th, 2006, 07:21 AM   #894
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hey tubeman

you see i am from the united states i live in Miami Florida and well i wondered about london alot since about the CTRL and the London Olympics in 2012 do you think it was a great idea for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link and will England built TGV or Shinkansen Style Trains and Routes and Tracks and such or only the CTRL
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Old October 26th, 2006, 07:27 AM   #895
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hey tubeman

i was wondering a bit but what do you think of the Olympics in London in 2012 and i think its exciting espically with all the construction in london and all

and i wonder of Eurostar have you been on Eurostar? how it is? i mean you could travel from london to paris or to brussels and back i mean europe and asia is lucky to have high speed Rails while America doesn't expect Acela
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Old October 26th, 2006, 07:41 AM   #896
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tubeman

i want to know something what London Rail is the best and that you rode on?

and whats the Best and Worst Underground Train line?

also which london train you take to go to Work and back and such?

its just that i am going to london soon since i will begin to travel in a few years from now
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Old October 26th, 2006, 12:30 PM   #897
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Quote:
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Stratford International won't open until 2010 at the earliest, possibly not until the 2012 Olympics. Its bizarre, the station is structurally complete... I don't really know the reasoning behind this. I know the DLR extension to the station isn't due to open until 2010, but even without it its only a couple of hundred metres from the existing Stratford with 2 Tube lines, DLR, and numerous Network Rail destinations... so its not as if its not connected.
Will the DLR be the only public transport link between the two Stratford stations?
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Old October 26th, 2006, 07:44 PM   #898
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Not that I'm aware of, but its to me a very 'obvious' Crossrail option... One that I'd thought of before myself.

Milton Keynes is booming and there is great growth potential in the Tring - Leighton Buzzard - MK corridor which would benefit greatly from a Crossrail-style service beyond Euston. I'd be more in favour of a connection with the C2C line myself for the following reasons:

- Both systems are 25kv AC electrified, so no need for dual-voltage trains

- Customers from the Euston line get access to The City without changing, likewise C2C customers get access to the West End without changing

- Strain can be taken off the extremely congested Fenchurch Street

- To take the last point a step further, if all C2C services are diverted via this 'Crossrail 3', then the point from the tunnel entrance (probably in the Bromley-by-Bow area) to Fenchurch Street could be given over to allow DLR 4-tracking to Limehouse with perhaps the redundant bit of C2C (Limehouse to Bromley-by-Bow) becoming a new DLR branch. The 'slow' tracks between Fenchurch Street and Limehouse (Tower Gateway could be abandoned) could have internediate stops opened either side of Shadwell to serve the local area... This would in fact be a re-opening of two long-abandoned mainline stations at Leman Street and Cannon Street Road. Burdett Road could also be re-opened on the Limehouse - Bromley section.

The new tunnel for this Crossrail 3 would start just north of Euston with platforms linking the current Warren Street and Euston Square stations together (as opposed to under Euston proper) to form a new station complex served by the Northern, Victoria, Circle, H&C and Metropolitan Lines. Next stop could be Holborn, then City Thameslink, Bank, Tower Hill / Fenchurch Street, Shadwell, Limehouse, then emerging West of Bromley-by-Bow to join the existing C2C route. Its probably impractical for the tunnel to begin any further West as getting the C2C down from viaduct level to tunnel level on the approach to Fenchurch Street would be problematic.
Interesting idea, although your plan would surely mean London Fenchurch Street becoming a DLR 4 platform terminus - correct with the C3 platforms directly beneath? See I've always thought that if there was to be a mass-Crossrail building program, that the routes should be different

Crossrail 1 for instance should go outside the city boundaries.... Reading - Chelmsford
Reading > Slough > London Heathrow Airport > London Paddington > London Liverpool Street > Stratford > Romford > Chelmsford

Crossrail 2: Guildford - London Stansted Airport
Guildford > Woking > Clapham Junction > London Waterloo > London Liverpool Street > Broxbourne > Harlow > London Stansted Airport

Crossrail 3: Milton Keynes - Chatham
Milton Keynes > Watford Junction > Willesden Junction > London Euston > London Bridge > Lewisham > Dartford > Chatham

Crossrail 4: Aylesbury - Southend Central
Aylesbury > Amersham > Harrow-on-the-Hill > London Marylebone > London Fenchurch Street > Barking > Upminster > Southend Central

Crossrail 5: Basingstoke - Cambridge
Basingstoke > Ascot > Clapham Junction > London Waterloo > London King's Cross > Stevenage > Cambridge

Crossrail 6: Reading - Ashford
Reading > Heathrow Airport > London Victoria > London Bridge > Sevenoaks > Tonbridge > Ashford

Crossrail 7: Horsham - Southend Victoria
Horsham > Epsom > Clapham Junction > Victoria > London Liverpool Street > Stratford > Romford > Southend Victoria

Crossrail 8: Maidstone East - Peterborough
Maidstone East > Ashford > Caterbury West > London Cannon Street > London Moorgate > Finsbury Park > Stevenage > Peterborough




Tubeman - The reason for the CTRL alignment through London is simple: it avoids areas that could increase the risk of subsidence of properties above which would significantly delay construction, but also lead to lengthy disputes about insurance, etc...

Hence when it exits the Thames Tunnel, it follows the London, Tilbury & Southend Railway till Dagenham, dives under, follows this route towards Barking and then Stratford, where it then follows the route of the North London Line to St Pancras. There are maps showing its exact route and it practically follows this route to the lines above.

Stratford International was essentially going to be the London station for trains coming/going to Europe and the North of England - the reason being, that you don't have to reverse in and out of St Pancras. Stratford is however going to become something big. Currently its a wasteland, but a Canary Wharf like development will spring up, as well as the Olympic Park. Stratford is going to become a pretty impressive transport interchange when it opens.



Jean Luc - I know this is Tubemans thread, but I can give a quick reply: yes and no. I think an underground travelator has been rumoured but I can't be certain. The DLR will however offer direct links.

Last edited by nick_-_taylor; October 26th, 2006 at 08:02 PM.
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Old October 27th, 2006, 02:30 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
hey tubeman

you see i am from the united states i live in Miami Florida and well i wondered about london alot since about the CTRL and the London Olympics in 2012 do you think it was a great idea for the Channel Tunnel Rail Link and will England built TGV or Shinkansen Style Trains and Routes and Tracks and such or only the CTRL
The WCML (West Coast main line: London Euston - Milton Keynes - branch to Birmingham - Branches to Liverpool & Manchester - Preston - Glasgow) and ECML (East Coast main line: London King's Cross - Peterborough - Doncaster - Branch to Leeds - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh) are both 25kv AC electrified and in places capable of near-Shinkansen / TGV speeds. I think with the right investment these two will serve us perfectly well; the WCML has just had an enormous upgrade and journey times from London to Glasgow (etc) have been slashed with tilting trains up to 140mph; there's little need for new dedicated tracks really... certainly not within the realms of financial possibility.

All I forsee is upgrades / electrifications to existing trunk routes: The GWR route to Wales & The West should be a priority, as should the Midland Mainline. Through trains ex-CTRL are only really viable as far north as perhaps Leeds or Manchester; the distances between Scotland and Paris / Brussels are too far to make rail competitive with air, as shorthaul air travel is so cheap in Europe (Easyjet etc).

As I already said, the CTRL is commendable and had to happen, as the current situation (Eurostars crawling across Southeast London on suburban lines) is an embarassment.
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Old October 27th, 2006, 02:37 AM   #900
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Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
hey tubeman

i was wondering a bit but what do you think of the Olympics in London in 2012 and i think its exciting espically with all the construction in london and all

and i wonder of Eurostar have you been on Eurostar? how it is? i mean you could travel from london to paris or to brussels and back i mean europe and asia is lucky to have high speed Rails while America doesn't expect Acela
I'm very excited about the Olympics... Its being held in a very deprived area of London (The East End) and I'm certain it will have a lasting beneficial effect on the area and will be a great force for good in this city.

Eurostar is great, I travelled on it to Paris this time last year. Its still in transition somewhat as you crawl out of London waterloo on a torturous series of suburban lines, stop-starting to Fawkham Junction in kent, where you join phase 1 of the CTRL. The difference is amazing; the line is so new and so well-engineered that you glide effortlessly along at 180mph and it barely registers, the next thing you look up and are in the tunnel itself. On the French side the ride is a little rougher as the track is older, but in seemingly no time you're entering Gare Du Nord in a different country. This sensation is very odd to a British person having never done it before; living on an island, the concept of catching a train to another country is very bizarre.
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