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Old October 29th, 2006, 10:46 PM   #921
Tubeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thainotts View Post
Tubeman, you say the WCML operates at 140mph, is the main reason for this speed the track (gauge, lbs/yd, etc) that allows the train to run at such speeds?
The main limit to speeds are curves... The WCML is in places 164 years old, and is simply not engineered for Shinkansen / TGV speeds having been conceived at a time when speeds of 140mph were inconceiveable.

The line has just been upgraded to accommodate 'Pendolino' tilting trains, making great savings on journeys like London to Glasgow, as the 'twistier' sections of the route are found north of Preston where the terrain becomes much hillier.

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Old October 30th, 2006, 04:42 AM   #922
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Hey, Tubeman, great thread. I was absolutely enthralled with the Underground the last two times I was in London, so this thread has been immensely entertaining. My question is this; when I was there, I found the names of the lines to help in remembering routes a great deal. Why do you think many other subway/metro systems have foregone this system? I can understand why New York's system operates as it does, but to me, having to remember a bunch of numbers, or termini is very confusing, and colors are so bland. Thanks a ton for this thread.
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Old October 30th, 2006, 08:56 AM   #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
The main limit to speeds are curves... The WCML is in places 164 years old, and is simply not engineered for Shinkansen / TGV speeds having been conceived at a time when speeds of 140mph were inconceiveable.

The line has just been upgraded to accommodate 'Pendolino' tilting trains, making great savings on journeys like London to Glasgow, as the 'twistier' sections of the route are found north of Preston where the terrain becomes much hillier.
As a way of increasing speeds and decreasing travel times would realigning the more winding sections of a railway line and bypassing towns and cities enroute be economically viable e.g. on the WCML and ECML?

As long as there is a mixture of fast and slow trains operating on the same tracks TGV-type speeds (300 kph) are impossible.

Tubeman, do you know what is the fastest "conventional", i.e. non-high speed, railway line in the world? I could be wrong but I believe that the Northeast Corridor in the U.S. allows 240 kph (150 mph) over some sections, in Sweden some tracks over which the X2000 tilt-train operates allow 250 kph and the line from Berlin to Hamburg, Germany, was recently upgraded to allow 230 kph. Apparently in France SNCF is planning to upgrade some classic mainlines to allow 240-250 kph.



Cool trains, those Pendilinos. Nice pic.

Thanks.

Last edited by Jean Luc; October 30th, 2006 at 09:17 AM.
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Old October 30th, 2006, 01:03 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by ADCS View Post
Hey, Tubeman, great thread. I was absolutely enthralled with the Underground the last two times I was in London, so this thread has been immensely entertaining. My question is this; when I was there, I found the names of the lines to help in remembering routes a great deal. Why do you think many other subway/metro systems have foregone this system? I can understand why New York's system operates as it does, but to me, having to remember a bunch of numbers, or termini is very confusing, and colors are so bland. Thanks a ton for this thread.
Hey, you're most welcome

Yes, the line names is one of the many things I love about The Tube that give it its uniqueness. I think one of the main reasons why its not employed elsewhere is its difficult to concoct snappy, relevant names that don't sound stupid, although I'm sure that when people first started using the name 'Bakerloo' it must have sounded pretty daft!

These are the origins of the line names (to my knowledge)

Metropolitan = Metropolitan Railway
District = Metropolitan District Railway
Circle = Self-explanatory... Was originally the 'Inner Circle' service run by the Met & District jointly
East London = East London Railway
Hammersmith & City = Only recently coined (1990), links Hammersmith with 'The City'
Central = Central London Railway
Waterloo & City = Links Waterloo station with 'The City', colloquially called 'The Drain'
Piccadilly = Great Northern, Brompton & Piccadilly Railway (quite a mouthful!)
Bakerloo = Baker Street & Waterloo Railway
Victoria = Passes through Victoria station
Jubilee = Was under construction during the Queen's Silver Jubilee (1977)... opened 1979
Northern = A bit of a hash... formed by amalgamating two separate lines:

Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway (colloquially became 'Hampstead Tube') = Charing Cross branch
+
City & South London Railway = Bank Branch

The 'Northern' name came into use as the newly-formed line began expanding over the Great Northern Railway's 'Northern Heights' branches in the 1930's / 40's... Ironically much of this work was abandoned resulting in the never-realised services to Alexandra Palace, Edgware via Mill Hill and Finsbury Park to East Finchley, and even more ironically the Northern line goes the furthest south in London (Morden).

Many of the names were contractions of the official railway company names coined by passengers and later adopted by Tube bosses... Obviously you're not going to tell someone to get on the "Great Northern, Brompton and Piccadilly Railway mate!"... You can see how the colloquial names rapidly evolved!
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Old October 30th, 2006, 01:34 PM   #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
As a way of increasing speeds and decreasing travel times would realigning the more winding sections of a railway line and bypassing towns and cities enroute be economically viable e.g. on the WCML and ECML?

As long as there is a mixture of fast and slow trains operating on the same tracks TGV-type speeds (300 kph) are impossible.

Tubeman, do you know what is the fastest "conventional", i.e. non-high speed, railway line in the world? I could be wrong but I believe that the Northeast Corridor in the U.S. allows 240 kph (150 mph) over some sections, in Sweden some tracks over which the X2000 tilt-train operates allow 250 kph and the line from Berlin to Hamburg, Germany, was recently upgraded to allow 230 kph. Apparently in France SNCF is planning to upgrade some classic mainlines to allow 240-250 kph.
I'm not too sure to be honest, but as you rightly say the maximum permissable speed is pretty academic when the high-speed services are having to dodge slow trains and freight services. The WCML upgrade, as well as higher-spec track, has included quadrupling of sections (e.g. the 'Trent Valley' route skirting northern Birmingham) and remodelling of junctions and stations to eliminate conflicting train paths (e.g. Nuneaton, Stafford, Rugby, Milton Keynes etc).

There are no particularly tight-radius curves south of Preston, the main problem is congestion in the aforementioned areas which is being rectified. North of Preston the line rises up as it passes across the highlands between The Lake District and The Pennines, then between Carlisle and Glasgow it again crosses difficult terrain in the form of the Southern Uplands of Scotland. Of course, with great expense and a series of new tunnels / viaducts I'm sure this route could be straightened, but from a cost-benefit perspective its probably a grotesque waste of money.

The rail time record for London-Glasgow has just been broken thanks to the upgrade and the Pendolinos: 3h55m was set in September for the 640km / 400mile trip, giving an average speed of exactly 100mph / 160kmh. I think this is pretty reasonable, and competitive with air travel considering the time cost of getting to an airport and checking in.

Similarly, the ECML has few curves of any note south of York: the main one was eliminated in the 1940's when Selby was by-passed. Its north of York where the line encounters the Cheviots and Southern Uplands that the going gets much slower, much of the route hugs the Northumberland coastline with dramatic cliffs on one side and hills on the other (a great journey if you ever get the chance)... again it would be hugely expensive to straighten the route. The passage through some towns and cities is very slow too, due to tight radius curves (e.g. York, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Berwick)... but if the line didn't serve these places it would be pretty pointless!
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Old October 30th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #926
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Thanks for the informative answer!

My next question is, how much per mile/kilometer is it to build tube lines? Has it gotten less expensive over time with technology, or do other factors, be it geological or political, raise the price tag?
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Old October 31st, 2006, 10:51 PM   #927
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Tubeman,

This isn't quite about the tube, but what are your thoughts about a new north-south link? should it follow the WCML or ECML? How fast should it be? 500kph, 300kph, 250kph, less? What option do you think the government will eventually go for? What should they go for? &c., &c.
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Old October 31st, 2006, 11:40 PM   #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADCS View Post
Thanks for the informative answer!

My next question is, how much per mile/kilometer is it to build tube lines? Has it gotten less expensive over time with technology, or do other factors, be it geological or political, raise the price tag?
When the bulk of the network was built we chucked hoardes of irish navvies underground and paid them a pittance, so construction costs used to be relatively low. These days we're paying contractors very good wages to build lines, and its ridiculously (and bascially prohibitively) expensive.

Even the grossly disruptive 'cut and cover' method employed before the advent of the Greathead shield kept the costs down by aiming for slums and demolishing them... The whole human cesspit that was the Fleet Valley was swept away by the Metropolitan railway, and was probably applauded for doing so at the time.

The Jubilee Line extension ended up costing £4bn for about 6 miles (10 km)

By my crude calculations that's £4,000 per cm!

Granted the stations are quite extravagant... but even so!...
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Old November 1st, 2006, 01:19 AM   #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Hey, you're most welcome

Yes, the line names is one of the many things I love about The Tube that give it its uniqueness. I think one of the main reasons why its not employed elsewhere is its difficult to concoct snappy, relevant names that don't sound stupid, although I'm sure that when people first started using the name 'Bakerloo' it must have sounded pretty daft!

These are the origins of the line names (to my knowledge)

Metropolitan = Metropolitan Railway
District = Metropolitan District Railway
Circle = Self-explanatory... Was originally the 'Inner Circle' service run by the Met & District jointly
East London = East London Railway
Hammersmith & City = Only recently coined (1990), links Hammersmith with 'The City'
Central = Central London Railway
Waterloo & City = Links Waterloo station with 'The City', colloquially called 'The Drain'
Piccadilly = Great Northern, Brompton & Piccadilly Railway (quite a mouthful!)
Bakerloo = Baker Street & Waterloo Railway
Victoria = Passes through Victoria station
Jubilee = Was under construction during the Queen's Silver Jubilee (1977)... opened 1979
Northern = A bit of a hash... formed by amalgamating two separate lines:

Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway (colloquially became 'Hampstead Tube') = Charing Cross branch
+
City & South London Railway = Bank Branch

The 'Northern' name came into use as the newly-formed line began expanding over the Great Northern Railway's 'Northern Heights' branches in the 1930's / 40's... Ironically much of this work was abandoned resulting in the never-realised services to Alexandra Palace, Edgware via Mill Hill and Finsbury Park to East Finchley, and even more ironically the Northern line goes the furthest south in London (Morden).

Many of the names were contractions of the official railway company names coined by passengers and later adopted by Tube bosses... Obviously you're not going to tell someone to get on the "Great Northern, Brompton and Piccadilly Railway mate!"... You can see how the colloquial names rapidly evolved!
Thanks a lot for all this info, mate!

It is very useful for me.
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Old November 1st, 2006, 03:03 AM   #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentigern View Post
Tubeman,

This isn't quite about the tube, but what are your thoughts about a new north-south link? should it follow the WCML or ECML? How fast should it be? 500kph, 300kph, 250kph, less? What option do you think the government will eventually go for? What should they go for? &c., &c.
The faster the better, really!

I think if one line is going to be built between London and Scotland it should be a WCML / ECML hybrid, e.g.:

London - Milton keynes - Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Glasgow

I think that's the top 5 biggest population centres on the UK linked on a single line? If I'm allowed a second route I'd have a 'short-cut' route through the Midlands diverging south of Milton keynes calling at Leicester, Nottingham & Sheffield before rejoining the trunk route at Leeds.

Of course, you could add more and more routes like a branch to Liverpool or a line westwards to Reading, Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea or southwest to Exeter and Plymouth... Where do you stop?

If there's funding available for one line only then I stand by my first proposition: a line linking London with Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow.
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Old November 1st, 2006, 09:54 AM   #931
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tubeman

i want to ask something what do you think of the Miami Metrorail and Metromover have you been to Miami before? what did you liked about Miami?

and another thing have you been on the Acela before? is it considered a real high speed train or not? because there are some people saying its not or something like that?
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Old November 1st, 2006, 10:55 AM   #932
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The problem with the Acela Express is that state railway codes mean that its speed is restricted. It only gets up to top speed for a few miles, but then slows down rapidly on other stretches to commuter-train pace.
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Old November 1st, 2006, 06:13 PM   #933
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Regarding the metal (iron dust) that people breath in, are there any plans to filter the dust out better? I.E, collectors, vacums, etc..

I heard the tube is bad for metal dust. The northern line is the worst for dust, why is this? Why isn't anything being done about the dust? Why do the public just accept it? Are they all sheep?

i heard some people need to wear masks on the tube, especially some people on the internet (tube challenger) is this common?

Do newer trains reduce the dust produced? If so, why is the northern line so bad for dust given its newish trains?

Isn't it irresponsible to do nothing about the dust problem?

Do you know people who have developed lung problems from the dust.

When are the picadilly trains being upgraded?
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Old November 1st, 2006, 06:47 PM   #934
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tubeman

i want to ask something what do you think of the Miami Metrorail and Metromover have you been to Miami before? what did you liked about Miami?

and another thing have you been on the Acela before? is it considered a real high speed train or not? because there are some people saying its not or something like that?
I only saw the Miami elevated metro system from a car, I didn't ride on it.

I only passed through Miami really, spent a couple of night at South Beach en route to Key West. South Beach was pretty cool, I liked the Cuban flavour and the art deco hotels... a bit noisy at night though! I barely set foot in Miami proper.

I've not been on Acela either... as Nick says its nowhere near in the Shinkansen / TGV league in terms of high speed. In fact, it probably lags behind the ECML or even Midland or Great Western mainlines in terms of average speed.
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Old November 1st, 2006, 07:15 PM   #935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
The Tube is in the region of 5-10C warmer than street level I believe, meaning when we get 35C+ in the summer (increasingly common) temperatures on some deep-level lines (the Victoria and Bakerloo are especially hot) could exceed 45C and extremely humid.

I also seem to recall being told that for every 2 minutes a packed Tube carriage is stationary underground the temperature rises by 1C, meaning a 10-minute delay on a hot day could send temperatures in the 50's Celcius!

The new SSR fleet of trains (S Stock) will have A/C, running on the District, Hammermsith & City, Circle and Metropolitan Lines. This is possible as the routes were originally built for steam trains and so there are vents for heat to escape the tunnels. This also means these are currently the least hot lines (but still stifling on a hot summer's day, so its welcome regardless). Experiments are being carried out for a new groundwater air cooling system for the deep-level tube stations (groundwater is around 19C), but the trains can't get A/C as there's nowhere for the exhaust heat to vent.

King's Cross is being hugely redeveloped in connection with the opening of the Eurostar terminal and new Thameslink platforms at St Pancras next Summer. The huge new ticket hall / concourse has opened (one of them) with more to follow, and the tatty and gloomy platforms on the subsurface and tube lines are all getting a major facelift. It'll be an amazing interchange when its finished.

Thanks for the info!
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Old November 1st, 2006, 07:26 PM   #936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
When the bulk of the network was built we chucked hoardes of irish navvies underground and paid them a pittance, so construction costs used to be relatively low. These days we're paying contractors very good wages to build lines, and its ridiculously (and bascially prohibitively) expensive.

Even the grossly disruptive 'cut and cover' method employed before the advent of the Greathead shield kept the costs down by aiming for slums and demolishing them... The whole human cesspit that was the Fleet Valley was swept away by the Metropolitan railway, and was probably applauded for doing so at the time.

The Jubilee Line extension ended up costing £4bn for about 6 miles (10 km)

By my crude calculations that's £4,000 per cm!

Granted the stations are quite extravagant... but even so!...
Oh god that translates to about 12 (4 times 3) billion Singapore Dollars for a 10km extension. For the same length of underground rail here, it would cost around 2.3 billion Singapore Dollars. And the network in Singapore still grows at a relatively slow pace even at this price. ITS AMAZING THE LONDON NETWORK STILL GREW AND GREW AND GREW and didn't rot away due to lack of funding etc! Great JoB Transport For London.

And great website as well. Very very informative, updated everytime something new happens... I liked it a lot.
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Old November 1st, 2006, 10:34 PM   #937
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Tubeman, please see my post about tube dust - a few posts back. Thx
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 05:06 AM   #938
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so the acela is not as fast as i thought it would be i don't know why doesn't the united states gets its act together and start to build a new high speed rail line or simply upgraded an exsting line and make it faster
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 06:42 PM   #939
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I've never seen anyone on the Tube with a mask. I've never noticed a dust problem. Us Brits don't tend to worry about small things like that.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 10:02 PM   #940
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There are rather too many news articles on dust in the tube....but apparantly its not too much of a concern. Still, I'd hope that they would be doing something to reduce the dust as much as possible as the dust could be toxic.
There is a fellow who uses a mask, search him on the web.
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