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Old November 2nd, 2006, 10:04 PM   #941
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Acela is 135 max - DC-NYC
NYC-BOS -- max 150mph for short section -- held up at slow speeds because it travels on metro north commuter tracks.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 10:05 PM   #942
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I'd think that a maglev will be built soon as the democrats regain controll.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 11:35 PM   #943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Regarding the metal (iron dust) that people breath in, are there any plans to filter the dust out better? I.E, collectors, vacums, etc..

I heard the tube is bad for metal dust. The northern line is the worst for dust, why is this? Why isn't anything being done about the dust? Why do the public just accept it? Are they all sheep?

i heard some people need to wear masks on the tube, especially some people on the internet (tube challenger) is this common?

Do newer trains reduce the dust produced? If so, why is the northern line so bad for dust given its newish trains?

Isn't it irresponsible to do nothing about the dust problem?

Do you know people who have developed lung problems from the dust.

When are the picadilly trains being upgraded?
One of the problems with the media is that they often over-hype situations. Fear sells papers quite simply. Essentially, this fear of dust on the underground started by a study from the University College of London which suggested the dust maybe harmful to passengers in 2003. Apparently at the time, the mobile dust vacuum train that clears up the dust was not operational.

In 2005 a study was done by the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh, and concluded that the dust levels was not high enough to pose any serious health risks. The safe occupational welding fume exposure level is set at 5000 ýg/m3 and workers on the London Underground could expect to be exposed to maximum levels of 200 ýg/m3 over an 8 hour shift. Commuters using the Underground for two hours every day would boost their particulate matter levels by 17 ýg/m3 over 24 hours.

Here are a couple of links to this study.
Link 1

Link 2

If you are still worried do a google search for the complete finding. I know it's publicly available on the internet somewhere in PDF form.

In reality though, the pollution at street level is far more of concern. Don't let the media hype suck you in
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 01:36 AM   #944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Regarding the metal (iron dust) that people breath in, are there any plans to filter the dust out better? I.E, collectors, vacums, etc..

I heard the tube is bad for metal dust. The northern line is the worst for dust, why is this? Why isn't anything being done about the dust? Why do the public just accept it? Are they all sheep?

i heard some people need to wear masks on the tube, especially some people on the internet (tube challenger) is this common?

Do newer trains reduce the dust produced? If so, why is the northern line so bad for dust given its newish trains?

Isn't it irresponsible to do nothing about the dust problem?

Do you know people who have developed lung problems from the dust.

When are the picadilly trains being upgraded?
The dust is mostly the result of friction brakes (i.e. brake pads applying pressure to wheels) and thus is a combination of minute fragments of steel and the resin brake blocks are manufactured with. All trains built since the late 1960's have the majority of inertia removed using a Rheostatic or 'Rheo' brake, the basic principle being that the opposite electromagnetic forces are applied to axles by the motors to when forward movement is desired, thus reducing speed without any actual friction. This means that the amounts of dust produced by trains built after the late 1960's is far less than from earlier trains.

Today only one pure friction brake stock survives, the Metropolitan / East London Lines' A Stock. The last stock prior to that to be withdrawn that was 100% friction braked was the Northern Line's 1959 Stock (which had a few ex-Central Line 1962 stocks mixed in). These took their bow only 6 years ago in 2000, and the Northern Line is still waiting for the dust to settle so to speak. I remember from my days as a Guard on the back of '59s' the constant bluish haze on the Northern Line and the way that at the end of each day black dust would be deposited in every crease in your face and clothing (made worse by the fact our uniform shirts were white then). The dust levels are diminishing but still noticeably higher than other lines.

I remember when the first 1995 stocks were being introduced we tried to run a vacuum train through the Northern Line tunnels to try to clear out the buildup of tunnel dust (over 100 year's worth) and it broke down after a few hundred metres because it was dislodging so much dust. It was decided to leave the dust to cake onto the tunnel walls rather than dislodge any more.

Also bear in mind the lack of aeration on the Northern Line: its 28km of continuous tunnel from Morden to East Finchley via Bank with a further loop of tunnel attached via Charing Cross and the Edgware Branch to Golders Green... well over 40km of twin tunnels with only three openings to the outside world. It will take decades for the loose dust to be blown out.

I have never seen any customers wearing a mask, some drivers choose to but even this is rare with only a handful doing so. Its not hazardous, and the air quality is actually better in terms of harmful pollutants like Ozone, Carbon Monoxide and Sulphur Dioxide than at street level.

The only long-term health problems I've ever known afflict drivers that could be attributed to their job is RSI in wrists / elbows / shoulders, the only people I have ever known suffer from lung problems were smokers.

The Piccadilly Line will probably receive new 'Movia' trains built by Bombardier, the current 1973 Stock were only refurbished 6 years ago and I think look very smart.

'Movia' Prototype under construction at Derby:





They will be introduced 2009-2011 on the Victoria Line, and by 2019 on the Bakerloo Line... Not too sure about the Piccadilly Line
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 01:53 AM   #945
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Thanks. However, there really should be more effort to clean up that dust on the northern line. Maybe they should have more than 1 dust trains.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 02:45 AM   #946
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Quote:
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Thanks. However, there really should be more effort to clean up that dust on the northern line. Maybe they should have more than 1 dust trains.
Yes but as I've already alluded to, they cause more problems than they solve as they dislodge previously well-caked dust.

In my opinion the best way of solving the issue would be to spray some form of bonding agent onto the tunnel lining to firmly glue loose dust particles. Modern trains generate little dust, they just blow around dust produced by trains years ago.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 12:12 PM   #947
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Hi Tubeman,

Ever since i have lived in London all the delays pretty much seem to be signal failure... where can i find what the most common signal failure is, and what exactly is it? Is it loss of power, broken wires? I don’t remember ever hearing on other systems around the world about signal failure i.e. New York, Paris or hometowns Sydney and Melbourne... I understand London’s system is very old but surely they have upgraded signal systems over the years, and particularly on the newer lines i.e. Jubilee, why does this still have signal failure? Am i being skeptical or is signal failure just a broad term for something is wrong.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 12:29 PM   #948
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Come to think of it, not one single signal failure on the Northern Line while I visited for Halloween weekend. And for some reason Camden Town could be used to embark as well, that's not supposed to happen on Sundays is it? (had to use the stairs though, should definitely do that more often, I'm still young.)
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Old November 11th, 2006, 10:59 AM   #949
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Hi Tubeman,

Ever since i have lived in London all the delays pretty much seem to be signal failure... where can i find what the most common signal failure is, and what exactly is it? Is it loss of power, broken wires? I don’t remember ever hearing on other systems around the world about signal failure i.e. New York, Paris or hometowns Sydney and Melbourne... I understand London’s system is very old but surely they have upgraded signal systems over the years, and particularly on the newer lines i.e. Jubilee, why does this still have signal failure? Am i being skeptical or is signal failure just a broad term for something is wrong.
There's a post by me buried in the deepest recesses of this thread explaining the principles of signalling and the cause of signal failures, but the search function aint working so I can't dig it out for you... ...oh well, here goes!...

Firstly, I'll describe the difference between running rails and current rails... it should be pretty obvious I hope! LUL use a 4-rail system with the two running rails and 2 current rails. They are easily distinguished as the current rails are higher, supported by white porcelain 'pots', and have a wider, duller top surface. One (the negative) is dead centre between the two lower, shinier running rails, the other (the positive) lies on the outside of one of the running rails (switching sides usually so they're furthest from the platforms).



The lower, shinier running rails are what the wheels run on. You must hear the 'clackety clack' noise from the wheels of trains? Many of these are simple expansion joints between rail sections, but others (making more complex 'rhythms') are so-called 'Insulated Block Joints' (IBJs). These are sections of plastic separating rail sections into electrically isolated sections of track, each a so-called 'Track Circuit' or 'Signal Track Circuit'. Through the running rails of each section flows a small current of 5-10V which when uninterrupted maintains the signal to the rear at green. When anything interrupts this circuit, the signal to the rear defaults to red (i.e. it 'fails safe').

An insulated Block Joint (IBJ)



By far the commonest reason for the track circuit to be interrupted and the signal to the rear to return to red is a train running through the section; the metal wheels and axle short-circuit the section. As soon as the last set of wheels pass across the IBJ at the end of the section, the circuit becomes complete again and the signal turns green to the rear, essentially proving the section no longer has a train in it.

However, other than an actual train, the section can also give a false indication of a train's presence if the circuit is broken: commonest reasons are a broken rail, flooding (causing an earth), a conductive object bridging an IBJ (often as simple as a foil sweet wrapper), or a metal object contacting both a running rail and a current rail causing an arc of high-voltage electricity to enter the low-voltage track circuit, blowing the track fuses (fuses on the track circuit designed exactly for this eventuality).

Any of these instances will cause the signal to the rear of the section to return to red even without a train in the section, and this is a 'Signal Failure': a signal showing danger even when there is no train ahead.

Once it is established to be a failure, each train must speak to the signal operator and be authorised past the signal in turn until the failure is resolved. This causes such a delay on LUL as each train when passing a red signal is restricted to 'slow speed' mode (no more than 5mph) for 3 minutes afterwards. This is the mechanism which stops trains from colliding even if a driver passes a red signal and decides to continue regardless, its basically the result of a stringent saftey feature.

Here is a red signal, with the ATP (Automatic Train Protection) system raised: The 'Trainstop'... this contacts a lever on the leading bogie of the train called a 'Tripcock', which automatically applies the brakes. Like everything, it fails safe, and is held down with air pressure. If the air supply fails the trainstop springs up and the signal returns to red, this is another cause of a signal failure (air supply failure to the trainstop)... the unique indication of this is that the signal will display a red and green aspect at the same time ('Dual Aspect'):



Closer view of a trainstop:



The tripcock on the train (small lever pointing downwards by joint in rails):



...And when the Tripcock and Trainstop are united...



Each train is then greatly delayed: they stop at the failing signal, speak to the signal operator, receive authority, proceed past the red signal (which stops the train automatically), re-sets the stopping mechanism (called a tripcock), overrides the block on forward movement caused by this, then proceeds at 5mph (i.e. walking pace) for 3 minutes afterwards. If trains normally run every 2 minutes, you can appreciate how quickly a huge backlog of trains builds up behind the failure.

So, when you hear of a signal failure it is excatly that, but sadly due to the age of some of our signalling equipment we're probably more prone to it than most networks.

Last edited by Tubeman; November 11th, 2006 at 12:06 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2006, 08:49 AM   #950
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Brilliant description Tubeman! Thanks.
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Old November 13th, 2006, 03:13 PM   #951
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Great, thanks so much for the excellent pictures and description A+++. I was wondering since problems can happen rather easily could there be a different system implemented. I always wondered if you could put tracking devices in trains cabins that literally send out a signal via radio waves, you then have the tube tunnels networked as such which receive the signal and send the details back to "base" for processing... Base can then send signals to different parts of the line i.e. red stop, green go full speed, yellow 1/2 speed etc... Could something like this work, or has it been tried on other systems either around the UK or world?

Cheers
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Old November 13th, 2006, 05:01 PM   #952
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Quote:
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Absolutely, I've walked through both myself

They're hardly busy thoroughfares these days (Greenwich is now paralleled by the DLR between Island Gardens and Cutty Sark stations and Woolwich runs below the Woolwich free ferry) but they are very much still in operation.

Do any other cities have such long pedestrian tunnels as these?
Probably Paris got such long pedestrian tunnels: this is a long walkway at Montparnasse



In Milan I think longer is this one at Rho-Fiera wich brings to new exhibition centre



This one is from Naples metro











[img][/img]
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Old November 13th, 2006, 08:34 PM   #953
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Tubeman

i know this is getting off topic but are you going to see the New 007 movie Casino Royale and if you did can you tell me how was it like and if i should go see it and who was better Pirece Bronson or Daniel Creig?

another thing ummm what is your Favortie Station in london Underground and National Rail?

also what is the Overground and what will it do to london?

and have you rode on the Crydon Tramlink and what you think of the expansions and how is it like?
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Old November 13th, 2006, 09:41 PM   #954
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I remember a very long pasillo in Barcelona's metro. There was no air and it was so hot!!
I think it was a connection between Lýnia 2 and another one!
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Old November 13th, 2006, 10:18 PM   #955
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Why are those nice little displays on the Uxbridge line simply saying "Metropolitan and Piccadilly trains", and not telling you how many more minutes it will be until the next train arrives? It seems to work along other stations of both the Met and the Pic, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't work around here?
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Old November 14th, 2006, 04:55 AM   #956
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I remember a very long pasillo in Barcelona's metro. There was no air and it was so hot!!
I think it was a connection between Lýnia 2 and another one!
PASSEiG DE GR└CiA station, transfer corridor between lines 3 and 4/2.

It is more than 200 metres long, but it has been renovated recently and now it's less hot and it has got a better ventilation.
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Old November 14th, 2006, 09:22 AM   #957
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Brilliant description Tubeman! Thanks.
You're very welcome, I hope it made sense!
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Old November 14th, 2006, 01:26 PM   #958
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Originally Posted by fishcatdogbird View Post
Great, thanks so much for the excellent pictures and description A+++. I was wondering since problems can happen rather easily could there be a different system implemented. I always wondered if you could put tracking devices in trains cabins that literally send out a signal via radio waves, you then have the tube tunnels networked as such which receive the signal and send the details back to "base" for processing... Base can then send signals to different parts of the line i.e. red stop, green go full speed, yellow 1/2 speed etc... Could something like this work, or has it been tried on other systems either around the UK or world?

Cheers
FCDB
Yes, what you're describing is called 'Moving Block'... Its going to be installed on the Jubilee then Northern Lines (and ultimately I presume the rest of the network still using the traditional Trainstop/Tripcock ATP [Automatic train protection] system from Westinghouse described above).

The two LUL lines not using the old Westinghouse system are the Victoria and Central: The Victoria has been ATO (Automatic train operation) since its inception in the 1960's, very advanced for its day, and the Central went ATO about 5 years ago. The Victoria Line still uses its original ATO system; the track is still separated into isolated track circuits, but instead of being a simple circuit controlling a signal to its rear, electrical impulses of various frequencies are transmitted to the train via the track circuits. The frequency varies depending on how close the train is to the one in front, and on approaches to platforms. I'm not too well versed with the system, but that's the jist of it. I know even less about the Central Line system, but assumedly its a fair bit more modern than the Victoria Line being over 30 years newer.

The modern vogue is pretty much as you describe, using radio signals and transponders... I think this is how very high-speed routes like TGV and Shinkansen are signalled.
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Old November 14th, 2006, 03:03 PM   #959
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^ Ace, always a pleasure reading your responses, thanks for your help/time! I wish i could just go to the future say approx 50 years to see what the London underground would be like, and if it changes drastically... only time will tell LOL...

Thanks again!

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Old November 14th, 2006, 05:56 PM   #960
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Originally Posted by bitxofo View Post
PASSEiG DE GR└CiA station, transfer corridor between lines 3 and 4/2.

It is more than 200 metres long, but it has been renovated recently and now it's less hot and it has got a better ventilation.
Pues si! I remember walking through it with three bags from the SUPERMERCAT "El Corte InglÚs" ...it was not very easy in July!
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