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Old December 5th, 2006, 10:57 PM   #1021
Acemcbuller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I had too thought of 'fast walking lanes' and the footprints / arrows painted on escalator steps to show where to stand / walk. Perhaps the only issue with the latter is that any markings might get quickly worn off?
Hmmm. Yes I suppose the problem would be wear of the thousands of feet each day. Even road markings get worn down. The floors are also often smooth and get washed with chemicals too.


Here's odd question for you that I've always wondered about:
When driving a train, can you tell how full of people it is (e.g. from the amount of power needed to move) and if so how accurately?

James
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Old December 6th, 2006, 05:29 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by Acemcbuller View Post
Here's odd question for you that I've always wondered about:
When driving a train, can you tell how full of people it is (e.g. from the amount of power needed to move) and if so how accurately?

James
Yes you can sense the difference in performance between a packed train and an empty train, but the variation in performance between individual trains is probably more perceptable... They're all different. When handing your train over to the next driver you'll let them know what the braking / acceleration are like to prevent them getting a nasty surprise at the next station.

I seem to recall being much more able to tell the difference between packed / empty trains driving the old Northern Line 1959 Stock than what I later moved on to; District Line C and D Stocks. Maybe because the 1959 Stock were lighter being Tube stock? The fact they used pure friction brakes as opposed to Rheostatic brakes may have played a part too.
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Old December 6th, 2006, 02:41 PM   #1023
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To the best of my knowledge:

Oakwood
Arnos Grove
Wood Green
King's Cross
Green Park
Hyde Park Corner
Barons Court
Hammersmith
Acton Town
Northfields
Hatton Cross
Ealing Common
South Harrow
Rayners Lane
Ruislip

...So a train couldn't run from Cockfosters to Holborn, it would either have to reverse at King's Cross or Green Park.


Thanks for all the info!

RE: the question about which stations can be used as a terminus, is there split track or a loop which enables the trains to turn round then at Kings X?

When on the Victoria Line, when the train terminates at Brixton or Walthamstow is there a smililar loop?
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Old December 6th, 2006, 08:45 PM   #1024
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Correct me if I'm wrong tubeman but I believe the only loop that exists is at Kennington.
Otherwise its reversing sidings. The train goes into the siding, the driver chages ends by walking throug the train and then drives the traiin out on to the other track.
At the termini the driver just changes ends by walking along the platform. Then theres a switchover just outside the station to put him on the right track.

I remember reading something about it (once?) being problematic if trains are 'round the wrong way'?
I also recall mention of the existance of a loop south of Charing Cross in the early days. When the Northern Line was extended southwards, this was wiped out, except that part of if forms Embankment station, so giving it the curved plantform and legendary gap.

James
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Old December 7th, 2006, 04:56 AM   #1025
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Thanks for all the info!

RE: the question about which stations can be used as a terminus, is there split track or a loop which enables the trains to turn round then at Kings X?

When on the Victoria Line, when the train terminates at Brixton or Walthamstow is there a smililar loop?
There are five basic types of reversing points...

1) The loop:

The only example left in London in the truest sense is beyond Kennington: Southbound trains ex-Charing Cross loop south, west, then northwards to become Northbound Charing Cross bound trains (the loop cannot be accessed from the Bank Branch, but there is a central reversing siding).

The Heathrow Loop can be disregarded as its part of the actual Piccadilly Line proper, so its not really a reversing point as such.

There are two examples that have now disappeared... as acemcbuller correctly mentioned there was one at Charing Cross (Northern Line). When first opened as the 'Charing Cross, Euston and Hampstead Railway' the Charing Cross Branch of the Northern Line ran from Hampstead / Highgate (now Archway) to a terminus at Charing Cross. Due to congestion at the Charing Cross terminus the line was extended southwards via a loop under The Thames, with a single sharply curved platform at a new Charing Cross (now Embankment's northbound Northern Line platform), the original Charing Cross terminus then being re-named 'Strand' (before again becoming 'Charing Cross' in 1979, which is when 'Charing Cross' became 'Embankment'!!!). The loop was abandoned when the line was further extended to Kennington in 1926: the original single platform was retained (hence the sharp curve) and a new, straight, southbound platform was built alongside... The abandoned loop tunnel was filled in with spoil from the extension works.

The other abandoned example was at Wood Lane. Much of the loop is still in use, which explains the torturous curves and bizarre reversal from left hand to right hand running west of Shepherd's Bush. There was a single platform on the loop at Wood Lane originally, when the line was extended to Ealing Broadway in 1920 Wood Lane became a bizarre 3-platform triangular affair, complete with a swinging wooden section of platform which allowed entrance / exit to the depot. The whole station and loop facility was done away with and replaced by White City slightly to the north in 1947, thanks to the bizarre layout and operating problems at Wood Lane caused by the moveable platform section.

If you want to picture it more clearly, I suggest you buy my book!

Anyway, more about reversing!

2) The through reversing siding:

Examples being White City, Golders Green, Arnos Grove... between the two running lines is a third line accessible from both ends, with a platform on both sides. This gives maximum flexibility. There is an unusual tunnel example with no platform between Green Park and Hyde Park Corner (Down Street Siding).

3) The terminal reversing siding:

Like the above, but only accessible from one end and with a platform on one side only... examples being Tower Hill, Mansion House, Putney Bridge etc. A slight variation has the siding to one side of the other tracks, examples being Plaistow and Dagenham east. The drawback of this is a train entering / leaving the 'bay' obstructs both directions of traffic.

4) The emergency crossover

A simple crossover in one direction between the two tracks, very common but rarely used as in order to reverse a train it has to sit blocking the track while the driver changes ends. Examples being South Kensington, West kensington, Hornchurch, Embankment (etc etc etc).

On the Victoria Line there are 'scissors' crossovers approaching the platforms at Brixton and Walthamstow, like a pair of aforementioned emergency crossovers. Trains are routed into whichever of the two platforms is free before departing very quickly, very simple but easily disrupted if a platform becomes unusable (e.g. stalled train, no driver etc).
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Old December 7th, 2006, 05:04 AM   #1026
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Correct me if I'm wrong tubeman but I believe the only loop that exists is at Kennington.
Otherwise its reversing sidings. The train goes into the siding, the driver chages ends by walking throug the train and then drives the traiin out on to the other track.
At the termini the driver just changes ends by walking along the platform. Then theres a switchover just outside the station to put him on the right track.

I remember reading something about it (once?) being problematic if trains are 'round the wrong way'?
I also recall mention of the existance of a loop south of Charing Cross in the early days. When the Northern Line was extended southwards, this was wiped out, except that part of if forms Embankment station, so giving it the curved plantform and legendary gap.

James
Trains can be 'round the wrong way' on some lines but not others. With the loops at Heathrow and Kennington there is no such thing on the Piccadilly or Northern Lines, ditto C Stocks (Circle, H&C and Edgware Rd - Wimbledon) due to the Circle Line. Other trains, e.g. the District D Stock, have a West end and and East end and cannot be 'the wrong way round': no actual reason as such other than it disrupts the car numbering system. It has been known for a D Stock to reverse in Platform 2 at High Street kensington then accidentally take the Circle Line signal to Gloucester Road, thus ending up the wrong way around. This had to be solved by sending the embarrassed driver plus 'pilotman' all the way round the Circle Line and thence to earl's Court from High Street Kensington to get it the right way round again!
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Old December 7th, 2006, 02:47 PM   #1027
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I've got another question: why does the Olympia shuttle run the way it does? Why does it run to High Street Kensington?
I'd say increase the frequency and run it to Earl's Court only, because there isn't much advantage to running to High Street Kensington, and it won't be getting in the way or Circle and Wimbleware trains if you shorten it.

The only advantage I can see is that it also connects to the Circle line, but:
- People actually headed for HSK can change at Earl's Court, or are actually better off by bus anyway, since those are more frequent.
- People for most destinations on the Circle Line can simply change at Earl's Court for a District line that reaches that destination too.
- The only extra destinations with just one interchange is the Edgware Road - Edgware stretch, many of which can be reached a lot more quickly by not using the Circle in the first place.

I think it would provide a better, more reliable service.
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Old December 7th, 2006, 06:19 PM   #1028
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Hi Tubeman,

I wonder how close we've come to a real disaster on the tube because of signal failures / trains being stuck in the tunnel on a hot day ? There must have been instances when we've been lucky not to have people die of heat related stress / heart attacks, don't you think ? Surely it's just a matter of time until a major disaster happens. I was interested to read that Ken has suggested tube lines may be closed in severe hot weather in the future to prevent such occurrences, but surely if they were going to do that it would have happened in the summer we've just had. Do you know of any formal plans to close lines if the temperature exceeds a certain amount ?
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Old December 8th, 2006, 06:10 AM   #1029
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I've got another question: why does the Olympia shuttle run the way it does? Why does it run to High Street Kensington?
I'd say increase the frequency and run it to Earl's Court only, because there isn't much advantage to running to High Street Kensington, and it won't be getting in the way or Circle and Wimbleware trains if you shorten it.

The only advantage I can see is that it also connects to the Circle line, but:
- People actually headed for HSK can change at Earl's Court, or are actually better off by bus anyway, since those are more frequent.
- People for most destinations on the Circle Line can simply change at Earl's Court for a District line that reaches that destination too.
- The only extra destinations with just one interchange is the Edgware Road - Edgware stretch, many of which can be reached a lot more quickly by not using the Circle in the first place.

I think it would provide a better, more reliable service.
High Street kensington has two 'bay' platforms for reversing trains, whereas Earl's Court has none. Reversing a train at Earl's Court entails the train arriving at Platform 2 (also the only possible platform ex-Wimbledon), being detrained (taking about 5 minutes), shunting forwards to signal EC13, the driver changing ends (another 4 minutes or so), before awaiting the shunt signal to proceed back westwards. During this move one of the two Eastbound roads is obstructed by the reversing train, limiting capacity through Earl's Court. Having this occur every 15 minutes would be extremely disruptive to eastbound services, especially the intensive service ex-Wimbledon (15tph). Trains reversing at High Street Ken is far less disruptive to the rest of the District Line, hence why Olympia trains reversing here.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 06:12 AM   #1030
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Hi Tubeman,

I wonder how close we've come to a real disaster on the tube because of signal failures / trains being stuck in the tunnel on a hot day ? There must have been instances when we've been lucky not to have people die of heat related stress / heart attacks, don't you think ? Surely it's just a matter of time until a major disaster happens. I was interested to read that Ken has suggested tube lines may be closed in severe hot weather in the future to prevent such occurrences, but surely if they were going to do that it would have happened in the summer we've just had. Do you know of any formal plans to close lines if the temperature exceeds a certain amount ?
I think we have come very close indeed... In my opinion it is only a matter of time before we have multiple fatalities due to trains being detained between stations during the Summer months.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 11:55 PM   #1031
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Hi Tubeman

Thanks for putting this thread together. You clearly have put a great deal of time and effort into it and I am really greatful.I have been following it for some time and really appreciate your insights.

I would like to ask question about the South West Trains service if I may. I travel from Epsom to Waterloo daily at around 7.30. A few weeks ago, my train was severely delayed. When it arrived it was announced that it would be running non stop to Waterloo. This meant it missed 9 or 10 stations on the way in. From my point of view it was fantastic - it cut a 40 minute journey to around 20 minutes, but it got me thinking about a few things ..

Firstly - how can they do this? Surely congestion on the line would prevent a clear run to Waterloo (although clearly not)
Second - what about the passengers further down the line. Would they have recieved a message of cancellation?
Finally - if a direct service is possible, why dont they do it daily? Im sure it would be popular - Epsom is a major stop and pretty much fills the train. I heard somewhere there used to be an express service that was withdrawn. Why would they do this and do you think that reinstating the service is feasable?
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Old December 9th, 2006, 01:14 AM   #1032
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This is on of the best thread's ever on skyscrapercity.com!

You're the man Tubeman!!
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Long live rail freight!!
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Old December 9th, 2006, 02:26 AM   #1033
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Hi Tubeman

Thanks for putting this thread together. You clearly have put a great deal of time and effort into it and I am really greatful.I have been following it for some time and really appreciate your insights.

I would like to ask question about the South West Trains service if I may. I travel from Epsom to Waterloo daily at around 7.30. A few weeks ago, my train was severely delayed. When it arrived it was announced that it would be running non stop to Waterloo. This meant it missed 9 or 10 stations on the way in. From my point of view it was fantastic - it cut a 40 minute journey to around 20 minutes, but it got me thinking about a few things ..

Firstly - how can they do this? Surely congestion on the line would prevent a clear run to Waterloo (although clearly not)
Second - what about the passengers further down the line. Would they have recieved a message of cancellation?
Finally - if a direct service is possible, why dont they do it daily? Im sure it would be popular - Epsom is a major stop and pretty much fills the train. I heard somewhere there used to be an express service that was withdrawn. Why would they do this and do you think that reinstating the service is feasable?
I'm presuming your train would go via Raynes Park? Maybe it normally joins the 'slow' lines upon joining the mainline at Raynes Park, stopping most stations, but on this occasion crossed to the 'fast' lines so was able to have an unimpeded trip?

By making back the lost time the train could keep its 'slot' into Waterloo, and consequently the next departure it formed could have been on time as opposed to also being delayed.

Hopefully the passengers further along the route were informed: what may have happened is that your service was so late the next service had caught up and so in effect everyone else wouldn't actually end up waiting much longer by letting your train non-stop. I'm sure they weren't too impressed though, seeing you whizzing past and then scrumming to get on the next train!

Having fast and semi-fast services on suburban routes means that some stations benefit whilst other suffer. Obviously on longer-distance routes like London-Portsmouth trains can't stop 'all stations' as it would take about 4 hours, but I suppose the logic is that the longest possible journey on inner suburban trips like those through Epsom isn't all that long, so maximum benefit and business is generated by all trains stopping at all stations, giving as frequent a service as possible. Fast trains take away paths from stopping services, and pose a logistical problem on routes with only double track (i.e. no possibility to overtake slow trains).

The stopping patterns of services are worked out with the shortest ultimate journeys stopping the most and the longest the least. For example, on the SWT 'Windsor Lines' the shortest trip stops everywhere, including inner London stations like Wandsworth Town and Queenstown Road Battersea (Hounslow Loop, Kingston Loop). The next longest service is that to Windsor, so this runs 'semi fast': skipping Queenstown Road and Wandsworth but stopping at Vauxhall, Putney, Mortlake, North Sheen etc. The furthest trip is the Reading service, so this runs fast stopping only at Clapham Junction, Richmond and Twickenham before stopping all stations after Feltham.

I suppose that it has been decided that capacity between Epsom and London is maximised by all trains being 'slow': if there were more than 2 tracks then you'd probably see fasts and semi-fasts.
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Old December 9th, 2006, 02:29 AM   #1034
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This is on of the best thread's ever on skyscrapercity.com!

You're the man Tubeman!!


Thanks!

Just don't tell the Mods of this section that we've got up to over 1,000 posts!
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Old December 9th, 2006, 04:57 AM   #1035
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Hehe!
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Old December 9th, 2006, 07:53 PM   #1036
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Quote:
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Hi Tubeman

Thanks for putting this thread together. You clearly have put a great deal of time and effort into it and I am really greatful.I have been following it for some time and really appreciate your insights.

I would like to ask question about the South West Trains service if I may. I travel from Epsom to Waterloo daily at around 7.30. A few weeks ago, my train was severely delayed. When it arrived it was announced that it would be running non stop to Waterloo. This meant it missed 9 or 10 stations on the way in. From my point of view it was fantastic - it cut a 40 minute journey to around 20 minutes, but it got me thinking about a few things ..

Firstly - how can they do this? Surely congestion on the line would prevent a clear run to Waterloo (although clearly not)
Second - what about the passengers further down the line. Would they have recieved a message of cancellation?
Finally - if a direct service is possible, why dont they do it daily? Im sure it would be popular - Epsom is a major stop and pretty much fills the train. I heard somewhere there used to be an express service that was withdrawn. Why would they do this and do you think that reinstating the service is feasable?
Too add to Tubeman's already very informative answer...

There once was a fast Epsom service. In their last timetable overhaul SWT benefitted a lot of the inner suburban stops towards Waterloo by increasing their frequencies - however this was at a loss to those further out who had previously had fast trains.

When I wait for a train at somewhere like Wimbledon, I do get frustrated at the number of fast trains that whizz by with plenty of standing capacity. Seems unfair that a station with an interchange to both the tube and tram (and other NR services) doesn't get fast services like other equivalent areas in London such as Ealing or Croydon. However when you take a train on a long distrance route yourself, you begin to see the benefit of having fewer stops - they really do take up a lot of time.

I have been on these SWT suburban stopping trains when they've had to switch to the fast intercity lines because of a broken down train infront. I've also had the pleasure of these trains going via the district line at Wimbledon when a major engineering problem has occured (see an early post on this thread) - the faces of people waiting at district line platforms! More recently I was at Raynes Park where a long-distance 'fast' train stopped. The train was to be reversed round the Kingston Loop to Waterloo via Twickenham because of a trackside fire past Wimbledon. The guard kindly let me on - it was a pleasure to go fast none stop on a round trip that usually take ages. Fascinating railway is the SWT suburban franchise. All sorts of crossovers and loops.
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Old December 10th, 2006, 02:45 AM   #1037
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Fascinating railway is the SWT suburban franchise. All sorts of crossovers and loops.
Yes its pretty amazing... most countries would be proud of such a complex network, let alone most cities!



SWT Map
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Old December 11th, 2006, 11:56 AM   #1038
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Thanks Tueman and Sarflonlad

Yes, it is the Raynes Park route. Actually, having travelled it for a year now I have found the service to be very good. I read a lot of bad press about the South West Trains service but my experience is that they are pretty reliable. Also, I guess I am one of the lucky ones boarding at Epsom because I always get a seat. Bt the time the train reaches Motsbur park its standing room only and towards the end of the journey you start to hear the inevitable shouting as passenges struggle to get through the doors. I think I would be far less tolerant if I had to cope with that each day.

Thinking about the way you have described the decision process for running an express service I guess it makes sense for Epsom not to have one. Selfishly I would like them to but with the passenger volumes the line currently has it would just increase the nightmare for those further down the line.

Perhaps we will be one of the routes upgraded to a double decker service.
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Old December 11th, 2006, 06:07 PM   #1039
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Thanks Tueman and Sarflonlad

Yes, it is the Raynes Park route. Actually, having travelled it for a year now I have found the service to be very good. I read a lot of bad press about the South West Trains service but my experience is that they are pretty reliable. Also, I guess I am one of the lucky ones boarding at Epsom because I always get a seat. Bt the time the train reaches Motsbur park its standing room only and towards the end of the journey you start to hear the inevitable shouting as passenges struggle to get through the doors. I think I would be far less tolerant if I had to cope with that each day.

Thinking about the way you have described the decision process for running an express service I guess it makes sense for Epsom not to have one. Selfishly I would like them to but with the passenger volumes the line currently has it would just increase the nightmare for those further down the line.

Perhaps we will be one of the routes upgraded to a double decker service.

I think SWT is a great franchise... A privatisation success story. The fleet of trains are excellent and operationally it seems to run pretty well, although having lots of 4+ track sections and numerous diversionary options certainly helps.

Personally I'd like to see higher frequencies over higher capacity trains so that suburban mainline routes are more 'turn up and go' like the Tube (i.e. no need to consult a timetable because waits are never in excess of a few minutes), but I appreciate the limit on train paths available make this unlikely.
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Old December 11th, 2006, 11:15 PM   #1040
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Quote:
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I think SWT is a great franchise... A privatisation success story. The fleet of trains are excellent and operationally it seems to run pretty well, although having lots of 4+ track sections and numerous diversionary options certainly helps.

Personally I'd like to see higher frequencies over higher capacity trains so that suburban mainline routes are more 'turn up and go' like the Tube (i.e. no need to consult a timetable because waits are never in excess of a few minutes), but I appreciate the limit on train paths available make this unlikely.
This is pretty much the case from Raynes Park onwards on the south branches and Richmond onwards on the West branches. They're both Zone 4. Wimbledon Station seems - from when I've been there - to have more SWT trains departing to Waterloo at peak time than either branch of the district line.

In general SWT as a private company are OK I guess. It's unfortunate their original franchise was cut in half - we were promised lots of improvements (esclators at stations, double deckers) that they now don't have to commit to. We will be seeing longer trains and platforms soonish though.

Their refurbished fleet doesn't have air conditioning and the refurb was done with an aim to cram more people on - not offer better comfort. The reluctance to have accepted the Oyster card is a massive inconvience for commuters. Oh and the boss of Stagecoach is pretty notoriously homophobic having donated millions to a campaign to stop the scrapping of Section 28 - the trouble with private companies running services without competition is that you can't really protest against it's "moral" values.
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