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Old December 27th, 2006, 09:23 PM   #1081
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Thanks!

It looks pretty modern and clean inside, although not very different, it must be said.

I don't know why, but recently I've just found myself becoming more and more interested in the Tube network. (I always have been, but never really did much research into it)

Was just looking at some articles on Wikipedia, and learnt so many new things.

One question about the piccadilly line Heathrow extension: Will an airport-bound train always stop at all five terminals; or will it be a case of either T4 or T5 as the final stop?

--

Also! Just read that the S-Stock trains from '09 onwards will have air-conditioning! Awesome.
Yes!!! Air-con!

The new Heathrow Airport layout is a little silly if you ask me: when T5 opens in 2008 there will now have to be two separate Heathrow services, as the T5 station is on a linear branch off the current loop at T123. All trains will serve T123, but alternate trains will serve T4 via the existing loop and T5 by running via T123 onto the new branch and reversing.

I'd have served T5 by simply expanding the current loop further west, leaving a redundant 'short cut' between T4 and T123. In addition to this I'd have a curve built between T123 and T4 at the eastern end of the loop. What this would allow is for every single 'Heathrow' train to serve all three stations, and in addition a train could run in circles between the three stations, allowing travel between all three stations without changing (otherwise, for example, a trip from T4 to T5 would involve having to change).

Here's a hastily-drawn diagram of what I mean:

[IMG]http://i10.************/33mpjjb.jpg[/IMG]
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Old December 27th, 2006, 09:44 PM   #1082
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Ah, I see!

Your route is far more logical than the one planned. I wonder why they made such a silly choice? I mean, I suppose its easier to construct this way, but your way is far more convenient for customers.

Thanks for your effort with the drawing btw, very much appreciated.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 10:45 PM   #1083
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Quote:
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Yes, I'm positive about this: the tram's first foray back into Central London in 50 years;



http://www.lrta.org/london-Xriver.html

It certainly could work and work well: it will give some very deprived areas of South London (Walworth, Peckham, Brixton, Stockwell, Elephant & Castle) a quick, convenient link into Waterloo and Central London, and provide a very useful link between King's Cross St Pancras and Waterloo termini when there is currently no direct Tube route (I spent a couple weeks sampling life at King's Cross a couple of years ago for career development and you wouldn't believe how often you get asked how to get to Waterloo... and its complicated!). I think the crux of it is segregated street running, so it shouldn't be held hostage by London traffic.

Merry Christmas to you too!

What do you think the possibilities are of extending this to Croydon/Crystal Palace to meet the existing tramlink? Yes it would be a bloody long journey into Central London - but the Brixton/Peckham to Croydon bus corridor is pretty busy not to mention the distinct lack of tube down those parts.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 10:57 PM   #1084
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What do you think the possibilities are of extending this to Croydon/Crystal Palace to meet the existing tramlink? Yes it would be a bloody long journey into Central London - but the Brixton/Peckham to Croydon bus corridor is pretty busy not to mention the distinct lack of tube down those parts.
I think extension beyond Brixton down the A23 through Streatham Hill / Streatham / Norbury / Thornton Heath to Croydon should be a distinct possibility, of course no-one in their right mind is going to travel from Croydon to King's Cross by tram, but this link would provide a very useful local service in South London for shorter journeys like (for example) Streatham to Croydon or Brixton to Norbury.

Trams aren't designed to provide mass transit for commuters between the suburbs and Central London, but what they do do very effectively (as has been proved by Croydon Tramlink) is to tap in to areas with crap public transport and provide fast, frequent links to the nearest rail and Tube stations, or to effectively link suburban communities and local shopping / commercial areas.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:00 PM   #1085
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Ah, I see!

Your route is far more logical than the one planned. I wonder why they made such a silly choice? I mean, I suppose its easier to construct this way, but your way is far more convenient for customers.

Thanks for your effort with the drawing btw, very much appreciated.
No probs

I should be planning London's transport development

Sadly my potential is squandered whilst I wipe Tube drivers' arses on a daily basis to keep them sweet and keep the District Line running
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:05 PM   #1086
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Quote:
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No probs

I should be planning London's transport development

Sadly my potential is squandered whilst I wipe Tube drivers' arses on a daily basis to keep them sweet and keep the District Line running
Haha, you should be.

But I'm sure your knowledge of the Tube network is far superior to any top TfL official anyway.

Also; when Eurostar eventually stops at Kings X instead of Waterloo, what will happen to Eurostar's platform? I read something about it being converted into shops or being used by another train company?

I think it's a tremendous shame for Eurostar to even leave such a wonderful station! I'm sure Kings X will be better still, but it seems wasteful to have had Waterloo as "temporary platform" for Eurostar. Was this the case, or am I mistaken?

[unrelated to the Tube, but still. :-P ]
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:13 PM   #1087
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Think of the poor staff! We have run on Christmas day in the past and the services were pathetically under-used so scrapped. Its nice to just have at least one day a year where we are all off work!

National Rail shuts down for Boxing Day too... considering I'm in work tomorrow that's quite an attractive proposition
Although I can appreciate what you are saying here mate, I still don't agree. The UK is the only country in the world (outside of Ireland?) that doesn't have a proper train service on Xmas day. If even the American's can pull it off, surely London, one of the world's greatest cities can.

As for a day off work, yes, it's nice, but so many others have to work as well. We still have the Internet, Television, Radio, Taxi's, Restaurants, Emergency services, Airports, Petrol stations etc. All these people have to get to work, and there is no trains ??? Why should trains be stopped but one can still visit a porn site on the internet or listen to damn Brittney Spears on the radio. I would imagine trains are more important.

Sorry, there is no excuse. It's a shame on the UK. If I can travel by train in a tiny insignificant town in Bavaria on Xmas day, I should expect the world's largest metro system in one of the planets largest and most important cities to have some sort of service.

Anyway, sorry for the rant
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:14 PM   #1088
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Haha, you should be.

But I'm sure your knowledge of the Tube network is far superior to any top TfL official anyway.

Also; when Eurostar eventually stops at Kings X instead of Waterloo, what will happen to Eurostar's platform? I read something about it being converted into shops or being used by another train company?

I think it's a tremendous shame for Eurostar to even leave such a wonderful station! I'm sure Kings X will be better still, but it seems wasteful to have had Waterloo as "temporary platform" for Eurostar. Was this the case, or am I mistaken?

[unrelated to the Tube, but still. :-P ]
I think the favoured option is for the Eurostar platforms to be handed over to SWT for their longer-distance services, although all the space set aside for immigration control (etc) plus the 21 car-length platforms could be considered 'overkill' for a train to Portsmouth Harbour! I dearly hope it remains in railway use, it would be a travesty if it didn't. Rail travel is blossoming, and SWT is becoming far more attractive with its new fleet of trains and more frequent services, so the extra capacity will no doubt be welcome.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:15 PM   #1089
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Although I can appreciate what you are saying here mate, I still don't agree. The UK is the only country in the world (outside of Ireland?) that doesn't have a proper train service on Xmas day. If even the American's can pull it off, surely London, one of the world's greatest cities can.

As for a day off work, yes, it's nice, but so many others have to work as well. We still have the Internet, Television, Radio, Taxi's, Restaurants, Emergency services, Airports, Petrol stations etc. All these people have to get to work, and there is no trains ??? Why should trains be stopped but one can still visit a porn site on the internet or listen to damn Brittney Spears on the radio. I would imagine trains are more important.

Sorry, there is no excuse. It's a shame on the UK. If I can travel by train in a tiny insignificant town in Bavaria on Xmas day, I should expect the world's largest metro system in one of the planets largest and most important cities to have some sort of service.

Anyway, sorry for the rant
Tough. We want to get pissed
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Old December 28th, 2006, 01:11 PM   #1090
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Tough. We want to get pissed
no probs, so did I, and got pissed I certainly did.

Besides, I don't live in the UK, so no lack of transport on Xmas day never affected me. But it's still an important issue, and one I can't understand where there is a problem.

London is a very multicultural city, and from my memory of the tube, there are a lot of non Christians working there. I'm sure a large number of hands would come up if asked if anyone wants to work Xmas day from all the staff that don't celebrate Xmas.

You could still have your time off an get pissed, and the trains would still work. There are solutions to these problems, afterall, every other country in the world seems to have found it.

By the way, London's transport shutting down for Xmas day made the headlines here in Germany this year on the Spiegel publication (one of Germany's largest). As I said, there are solutions to these problems where both camps can be happy.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #1091
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I'm afraid your option for Heathrow would be a lot more expensive! They might have to re-scheme the whole thing anyway if the whole third runway plan ever goes ahead.

Don't forget it's free to connect from T123 to T4 on Heathrow Connect and Heathrow Express, so you still have a direct service there. Will they serve T5 as well in the end, by the way?
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Old December 28th, 2006, 06:23 PM   #1092
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no probs, so did I, and got pissed I certainly did.

Besides, I don't live in the UK, so no lack of transport on Xmas day never affected me. But it's still an important issue, and one I can't understand where there is a problem.

London is a very multicultural city, and from my memory of the tube, there are a lot of non Christians working there. I'm sure a large number of hands would come up if asked if anyone wants to work Xmas day from all the staff that don't celebrate Xmas.

You could still have your time off an get pissed, and the trains would still work. There are solutions to these problems, afterall, every other country in the world seems to have found it.

By the way, London's transport shutting down for Xmas day made the headlines here in Germany this year on the Spiegel publication (one of Germany's largest). As I said, there are solutions to these problems where both camps can be happy.
People of all faiths use Christmas day as a day for seeing family, let's face it, what proportion of 'Christian' Londoners go anywhere near a church anyway? I believe a handful of staff insist on working on Christmas day out of principle, and are found things to do at Head office (55 Broadway), but the vast majority, be they Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Hindu or Atheist, appreciate the day off and time with their families.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 06:47 PM   #1093
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Any idea why they built Southwark station where they did ? I know it connects with Waterloo East but let's face it - that was connected via walkway to Waterloo anyway. Surely they could have built an overground station on the line to Blackfriar's and connected with that ?
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Old December 28th, 2006, 08:33 PM   #1094
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I'm afraid your option for Heathrow would be a lot more expensive! They might have to re-scheme the whole thing anyway if the whole third runway plan ever goes ahead.

Don't forget it's free to connect from T123 to T4 on Heathrow Connect and Heathrow Express, so you still have a direct service there. Will they serve T5 as well in the end, by the way?
I don't see why it need be any more expensive (its all pretty academic now anyway). My proposed expanded loop involves pretty much the same amount of tunnel as the current under construction route, as the loop is single bore whereas the current extension is double bore.

The Heathrow Express / Connect T5 branch will branch off the current line at T123, so just like the Piccadilly Line it will have to run alternate T4 and T5 services with all trains calling at T123. This means that it will still be impossible to travel between T5 and T4 without changing trains at T123 be it via the Tube or the Express / Connect, which I think is pretty crappy planning and the reason behind my expanded loop and circular service proposal.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 09:17 PM   #1095
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Finally saw you on The Tube this morning, Tubeman - you was overseeing a train being fixed. Can I be totally kiss arsey and say you look a lot better on tv than you do in your avatar?

Your plan for Heathrow makes a whole lot more sense than the plan they went with - not only does it just break up the service (how many confused tourists are going to board the wrong service now and end up on the wrong side of the airport?) but it also makes T4 look less important on the Tube map, and I hate anything which implies a station is somehow subservient to another. Are the Underground and Heathrow Express services going to have separate platforms in their shared station at T5?
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Old December 28th, 2006, 09:40 PM   #1096
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Although I can appreciate what you are saying here mate, I still don't agree. The UK is the only country in the world (outside of Ireland?) that doesn't have a proper train service on Xmas day. If even the American's can pull it off, surely London, one of the world's greatest cities can.

As for a day off work, yes, it's nice, but so many others have to work as well. We still have the Internet, Television, Radio, Taxi's, Restaurants, Emergency services, Airports, Petrol stations etc. All these people have to get to work, and there is no trains ??? Why should trains be stopped but one can still visit a porn site on the internet or listen to damn Brittney Spears on the radio. I would imagine trains are more important.

Sorry, there is no excuse. It's a shame on the UK. If I can travel by train in a tiny insignificant town in Bavaria on Xmas day, I should expect the world's largest metro system in one of the planets largest and most important cities to have some sort of service.

Anyway, sorry for the rant

If I may give my cents worth...

London on Christmas eve after 9pm is DEAD. I can't be sure how many, but it seems a very significant proportion of "Londoners" are infact from elsewhere and go home for the xmas holidays. Barely anyone is riding public transport even when it is still running.

There is infact special bus services on Christmas day looping the city - but even that is not in much demand.

Different countries have their own traditions with regard to working and xmas day. I find it more bizarre however to find no shops open in Germany on Sundays for example than for London not to have a rail service on 1 day of the year.

It's not 'sorry there's no excuse' there's just no credible demand for a train service so why bother with it? Besides it's nice that we can all have the day off - no tube = no demand from employers people HAVE to come in on Xmas day.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 10:59 PM   #1097
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I don't see why it need be any more expensive (its all pretty academic now anyway). My proposed expanded loop involves pretty much the same amount of tunnel as the current under construction route, as the loop is single bore whereas the current extension is double bore.

The Heathrow Express / Connect T5 branch will branch off the current line at T123, so just like the Piccadilly Line it will have to run alternate T4 and T5 services with all trains calling at T123. This means that it will still be impossible to travel between T5 and T4 without changing trains at T123 be it via the Tube or the Express / Connect, which I think is pretty crappy planning and the reason behind my expanded loop and circular service proposal.
I'm not sure about the distances, but T4 to T123 always seems like such a long trip to me that a whole new tunnel going even further out just 'feels' like it would be very expensive.
But maybe you're right, and it would definitely be easier and nicer to be able to transfer directly between all terminals.
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Old December 29th, 2006, 01:36 AM   #1098
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Any idea why they built Southwark station where they did ? I know it connects with Waterloo East but let's face it - that was connected via walkway to Waterloo anyway. Surely they could have built an overground station on the line to Blackfriar's and connected with that ?
Southwark serves a purpose because of its location at the south end of Blackfriars Bridge, I'm sure the access to Waterloo East was more of an afterthought rather than a raison d'etre for the station.

Building a new overground station on the LCDR lines between Blackfriars and Elephant would be tricky as its 4-track viaduct, I think it would be of far more use if the original station on the Charing Cross lines below was re-opened as well, providing a bit more of a super-interchange between the Tube, Thameslink (or whatever its called these days) and the line to Charing Cross. The original station on this site was confusingly opened as 'Blackfriars' (what is now Blackfriars was originally named 'St Paul's'), but was relatively short-lived and replaced by 'Waterloo Junction' (later to become Waterloo East). The 'Junction' part of the name was due to the spur which ran across the present Waterloo concourse and across the road to the SER line ex-Charing Cross. The bridge is still very much in situ, and today supports the pedestrian walkway linking the two Waterloos.
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Old December 29th, 2006, 01:38 AM   #1099
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Finally saw you on The Tube this morning, Tubeman - you was overseeing a train being fixed. Can I be totally kiss arsey and say you look a lot better on tv than you do in your avatar?
Thanks

Its a shit photo, I'm actually a godlike adonis in real life
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Old December 29th, 2006, 01:40 AM   #1100
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I'm not sure about the distances, but T4 to T123 always seems like such a long trip to me that a whole new tunnel going even further out just 'feels' like it would be very expensive.
But maybe you're right, and it would definitely be easier and nicer to be able to transfer directly between all terminals.
It is a very long run, I presume necessitated by a desire for gentle curves and therefore higher speeds. T5 isn't that much further west than the current westernmost edge of the loop, so it could be considered a bit more of a re-alignment than anything else.
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