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Old February 25th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #1181
Tubeman
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Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
umm tubeman any new rail news like any news on the CTRL or any railway news so far and how is it going with the expansions of the Docklands Light Railway???

and if you do do you have new pics of the CTRL and other new rail things going on it includes airplanes and buses as well

also i heard of what happened on the railway with the virgin train i am so sorry tubeman is everything ok overthere i hope your country will be ok i saw it on the news and man the wreckage looks bad please forgive me everybody here
Personally I think its a great testament to the engineering of the Pendolinos that only 1 elderly women died and a handful of people were seriously injured: High-speed derailments like that used to cause dozens of serious casualties, but in this case despite carriages being wildly tossed around they all remained totally intact... in fact, not even a single window broke!!!

Its crap all the same, British railways took a real battering with disaster after disaster between 1989 and 2002 all caused by industry negligence or driver error, nearly 100 died and hundreds more were injured in total... except the Ufton Nervet disaster 2 years ago (when a suicidal idiot parked his car in front of a HST killing himself and 6 innocent passengers) we had had 5 years without any such incident and confidence was starting to return. Hopefully this is a warning shot across the bows and more stringent checks will be put in place: the suspicion is that it was a points defect.

Regarding developments...

CTRL2 will be opened from Medway to London St Pancras later this year, an amazing achievement considering it has tunnelled under half of London (Dagenham to St Pancras), a real feat.

The associated new First capital Connect (former Thameslink) station should open under St pancras at the same time, leading to the current station on Pentonville Road closing.

Langdon Park DLR station is due to open in the Summer between All Saints and Bow Church stations.

The DLR Woolwich Arsenal extension is well underway and is due to open in 2009.

Shoreditch East London Line station closed last Summer to allow works to begin in earnest on the East London Line extension, this will see 4 new stations open in 2010 (Shoreditch High Street, Hoxton, Haggerston & Dalston). To the south the East London Line is to be re-connected to the National Rail network at New Cross Gate to allow extension of services south to Crystal Palace and West Croydon, adding several new stations to the Tube map. Phase 2 of the extensions will see a re-opening of an abandoned line between Surrey Quays and Queen's Road Peckham, with a new station at Surrey Canal Road and East London Line trains serving stations on the South London Line to Clapham Junction, to the north the ELL will be connected to the North London Line at Dalston Western Junction, completing an 'Outer Circle' route encircling Inner London.

The Silverlink Metro line from Stratford to North Woolwich has closed, with the route between Canning Town and Stratford now being converted into DLR with the addition of 3 new stations (Abbey Road, Star Lane and Stratford International), opening 2010. The southern section including the tunnel under the Royal Docks has been mothballed as it will form part of Crossrail 1 if / when it is built.

Work is well underway on the new Shepherd's Bush station on the West London Line, this is a re-opening of a closed station (Uxbridge Road) after 67 years, it will have improved interchange facilities with the Central Line.

Imperial Wharf station serving western Chelsea and Chelsea Harbour is also due to open this year on the same line, this is totally new station, further south than the closed station at Chelsea & Fulham (also closed in 1940).

A new station is to be built on the Hammersmith & City line between Latimer Road and Shepherd's Bush over the road from the closed Wood Lane station. It will be named White City and have an interchange walkway with the Central Line station of the same name. At the same time Shepherd's Bush H&C line will be renamed 'Shepherd's Bush Market' to differentiate it from the new Central / Mainline station to the east. I'm unsure as to the timescales, but it will open within the next couple of years.

Further ahead...

The DLR extension from Gallions to Dagenham Dock has been approved, this will add 3 new stations along a corridor earmarked for housing development, work will probably begin when the Woolwich Arsenal extension opens in 2 years time.

Crossrail is still in the pipeline after 15 years of being talked about, but its closer now than its ever been. Works could begin as early as this year and would last until 2013 (just after the Olympics!).

...So quite a bit going on!

Last edited by Tubeman; February 25th, 2007 at 02:09 PM.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 05:47 PM   #1182
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The DLR extension from Gallions to Dagenham Dock has been approved, this will add 3 new stations along a corridor earmarked for housing development, work will probably begin when the Woolwich Arsenal extension opens in 2 years time.
I didn't realise this had moved on to this stage - excellent news.

Once it's built, do you think Beckton will continue to be served for long? It seems like it will end up as a bit of a strange Mill Hill East-esque spur. I certainly can't see it retaining much of a level of service frequency...
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Old February 26th, 2007, 12:16 AM   #1183
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Tubeman I'm sure this has been asked somewhere already (I'm reluctant to read the entire 60 page thread on the offchance.... ) but will we finally be able to use mobile phones in the tunnels next year or did the 2005 terror attacks put that scheme back on the shelf?
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Old February 26th, 2007, 01:56 AM   #1184
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To be honest I'd rather have mobile phones banned from the tube completely. I can't be the only one who hates the moment when you get out of a tunnel and phones start going off all around you.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 02:23 AM   #1185
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It would be a nightmare if they allowed mobiles on the tube. All those annoying ring tones, disrupting the relative peace, and having to listen to their boring personal conversations, etc...
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Old February 26th, 2007, 02:25 AM   #1186
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I have a question actually. Do you think Brompton Road Station will ever be reopened?
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Old February 26th, 2007, 03:23 AM   #1187
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wjfox2002: they're already allowed, it's just impossible to use them in tunnels?

Tubeman, how likely do you think it is that the Northern Line will be completely split? Obviously Camden Town will have to be redeveloped first because it wouldn't be able to cope with the passenger numbers, but are there any other hurdles?
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Old February 26th, 2007, 06:32 AM   #1188
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You mention Isambard Kingdom Brunel in the posts about Paddington Station. Apparently, he ranks very high in the esteem of many British people. I know pretty much nothing about his place in British culture. Care to enlighten me into how important he was, what references in everyday society there are to him, or why he is held in such renown over other great innovators and inventors?
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:09 AM   #1189
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I didn't realise this had moved on to this stage - excellent news.

Once it's built, do you think Beckton will continue to be served for long? It seems like it will end up as a bit of a strange Mill Hill East-esque spur. I certainly can't see it retaining much of a level of service frequency...
Yes, serving Beckton after the Dagenham Dock extension opens would be a headache, but from what I remember of the proposed service patterns it will remain open courtesy of a service to Stratford International.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:19 AM   #1190
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Tubeman I'm sure this has been asked somewhere already (I'm reluctant to read the entire 60 page thread on the offchance.... ) but will we finally be able to use mobile phones in the tunnels next year or did the 2005 terror attacks put that scheme back on the shelf?
If anything 7/7 would give more impetus to allow them, as they would have helped with communications no end (although if you remember the entire mobile network went down that morning due to heavy use). The Madrid bombs were detonated by mobile phone alarm clocks, so this method could be used on the Tube already as the phone doesn't need a signal for the alarm clock to work.

I remember when the now-functioning 'Connect' system was being proposed mobile phone aerials in tunnels was going to be part of the deal, but it doesn't look like this has happened... It was probably strongly objected to during consultation. Connect is the same system used by the emergency services and every member of staff and train / station will have their own handset / base station so in future the communication problems of 7/7 won't happen again unless Connect equipment is physically damaged.

I think Londoners, or certainly regular Tube users, would generally object to mobile phone aerials in tunnels due to the annoyance factor. I think it would be especially irritating as the levels of background noise on a moving Tube train can be very high, so you'd be sharing a carriage with half a dozen shouting people every rush hour.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:27 AM   #1191
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I have a question actually. Do you think Brompton Road Station will ever be reopened?
No... Its too close to Knightsbridge really. The station the other side of Knightsbridge (Hyde Park Corner) is quiet enough, I can only assume Brompton Road would be even quieter. It just takes a long time to get from Knightsbridge to South Kensington due to the torturous twists and turns between Brompton Road and South Kensington which have a 20mph speed limit.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:35 AM   #1192
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Tubeman, how likely do you think it is that the Northern Line will be completely split? Obviously Camden Town will have to be redeveloped first because it wouldn't be able to cope with the passenger numbers, but are there any other hurdles?
Its certainly not mentioned within LUL circles as far as I'm aware, but that's not to say it will never happen. There are no hurdles as such: there might be public opposition from (for example) people on the Edgware branch who go via Bank or likewise people on the Barnet branch who go via Charing Cross, but other than that its simply a matter of thinking of a name for the 'new' line and changing Tube maps. If the line is split into Edgware - Kennington via Charing Cross and High Barnet - Morden via Bank then both lines would have an overhaul depot (Golders Green and Morden respectively) and both would have enough space for stabling the respective fleets (there are also stabling points at Edgware, High Barnet and Highgate Wood).

It would make day-to-day running smoother but would remove the flexibility of being able to divert trains during failures and incidents.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:48 AM   #1193
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You mention Isambard Kingdom Brunel in the posts about Paddington Station. Apparently, he ranks very high in the esteem of many British people. I know pretty much nothing about his place in British culture. Care to enlighten me into how important he was, what references in everyday society there are to him, or why he is held in such renown over other great innovators and inventors?
Many people would say 'who?', but certainly anyone with an interest in railways or engineering would know who he is. He's probably the most famous Victorian engineer, but is often confused with his father Marc as feats are usually just referred to as being 'Brunel's'... In the case of the Thames Tunnel which they both worked on, this is more accurate. This has probably served to make the Brunel name more prominent as it really refers to a mini-dynasty.

The only cultural reference I can think of as such is Brunel University in West London, but he has been celebrated on TV on numerous occasions and appears on some £2 coins.

I think he's held in such high regard due to the diversity of his engineering: Railways, steamships, bridges, tunnels, machinery... and also its quality (e.g. the Great Western Railway was engineered to a very high standard with gentle gradients and no sharp curves). He and his father were pioneers, producing many world 'firsts'.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #1194
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Its certainly not mentioned within LUL circles as far as I'm aware, but that's not to say it will never happen. There are no hurdles as such: there might be public opposition from (for example) people on the Edgware branch who go via Bank or likewise people on the Barnet branch who go via Charing Cross, but other than that its simply a matter of thinking of a name for the 'new' line and changing Tube maps. If the line is split into Edgware - Kennington via Charing Cross and High Barnet - Morden via Bank then both lines would have an overhaul depot (Golders Green and Morden respectively) and both would have enough space for stabling the respective fleets (there are also stabling points at Edgware, High Barnet and Highgate Wood).

It would make day-to-day running smoother but would remove the flexibility of being able to divert trains during failures and incidents.
Just to let you know, the London 2025 report by TfL does suggest the splitting of the line, so a maximum of 30tph could run on either service.

I think you could still divert trains in case things go wrong. Just as a Circle can become an H&C now, a train can simply change from one line to the other if needed, even though it wouldn't do that during normal service.

Brunel, by the way, also has a statue at Paddington station, and one at Temple.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 11:47 AM   #1195
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Just to let you know, the London 2025 report by TfL does suggest the splitting of the line, so a maximum of 30tph could run on either service.

I think you could still divert trains in case things go wrong. Just as a Circle can become an H&C now, a train can simply change from one line to the other if needed, even though it wouldn't do that during normal service.
This would pose a problem in that drivers are allocated to a specific line, the only exception is the Circle and Hammermsith & City Lines which are operated by drivers from Edgware Road and Barking (H&C) depots. Drivers are not able to operate over 'foreign' infrastructure for safety reasons, and indeed if they have gone for more than 6 months without working a route they are at liberty to refuse. Once the line is split drivers of one line would not be able to work on the other unless they are regularly trained over the route, which would swallow up a lot of time in training.

Also, I would have thought that in order to get full benefit from the split the junctions at Kennington and Camden would be removed, as the reason why the frequent signal failures at Camden are so problematic is that points need to be manually clipped into position for trains to pass a failing signal, which causes long delays. Fewer points = more automatic signals = fewer failures / less disruptive failures. Only one link between the lines would need to be retained for stock transfer, assumedly the link between the Bank Branch and Edgware Branch at camden, as in turn stock / engineers trains currently access the Northern Line ex-Piccadilly Line at King's Cross.

To split the line only to keep all the links between them pretty much defeats the point.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 09:26 PM   #1196
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Ah alright then. ATO would probably get rid of the need for driver's route knowledge, I assume. But I was thinking of an H&C / Circle like construction.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #1197
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Question:

At Vauxhall station they recently built a lift from the Vauxhall Cross Bus Station to the Ticket Hall of the Underground Station - it goes no deeper - you must take the escalators to reach the trains. Do you know of any plans to build another shaft here to allow for a lift to the platforms?
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Old February 27th, 2007, 12:03 AM   #1198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Many people would say 'who?', but certainly anyone with an interest in railways or engineering would know who he is. He's probably the most famous Victorian engineer, but is often confused with his father Marc as feats are usually just referred to as being 'Brunel's'... In the case of the Thames Tunnel which they both worked on, this is more accurate. This has probably served to make the Brunel name more prominent as it really refers to a mini-dynasty.

The only cultural reference I can think of as such is Brunel University in West London, but he has been celebrated on TV on numerous occasions and appears on some £2 coins.

I think he's held in such high regard due to the diversity of his engineering: Railways, steamships, bridges, tunnels, machinery... and also its quality (e.g. the Great Western Railway was engineered to a very high standard with gentle gradients and no sharp curves). He and his father were pioneers, producing many world 'firsts'.
Cool, thanks! Over here, our education on the railroad pretty much covers how it tamed the frontier, so to speak. With so much development having occurred in the UK, it's interesting to note how many advances are overlooked
in our education, pretty much because they didn't happen here.
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Old February 27th, 2007, 01:18 PM   #1199
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Question:

At Vauxhall station they recently built a lift from the Vauxhall Cross Bus Station to the Ticket Hall of the Underground Station - it goes no deeper - you must take the escalators to reach the trains. Do you know of any plans to build another shaft here to allow for a lift to the platforms?
It is the ultimate aim for every Tube platform to be DDA compliant (i.e. step-free access), although because of local obstructions and the layout of stations this is often not achieveable with a single lift shaft. It will lead to some pretty roundabout journeys for MIPs (Mobility impaired people) at some larger stations, for example, at Earl's Court which is now officially DDA compliant if you want to get from the Piccadilly Line to the District Line step-free you have to take the original lifts up to the main concourse, access the high-level walkway above Platform 1, then proceed back on yourself to access the new footbridge from which new lifts descend to the District Line platforms.

It would have seemed more logical to extend the new lifts down to the level of the Piccadilly Line, but they are a good 100metres west of the western end of the Piccadilly Line platforms, so a very long passageway would have to be built between the two Piccadilly Line tracks, which defeats the point of making stations accessible to MIPs (if they then have to negotiate long passageways).

So to return to the original question, yes there will be lift access to the platforms at some point in the future because we have to eventually, but it probably won't be a continuation of the existing lift shafts. What you have to bear in mind is that at stations which were built with escalators originally (like Vauxhall), the concourse is never directly above the platforms because of the angle of the escalator shaft, so sinking a lift shaft directly down from the concourse will end up a good 50-100m away from the platforms at deeper stations, leading to the need for a long passageway.

A graphic illustration is Angel, when it was redeveloped in the 1990's to replace the lifts with escalators, the station entrance moved 250m round the corner from City Road to Upper Street because the great depth of the platforms meant the escalators would rise nowhere near the old lift shafts.
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Old February 27th, 2007, 01:18 PM   #1200
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Cool, thanks! Over here, our education on the railroad pretty much covers how it tamed the frontier, so to speak. With so much development having occurred in the UK, it's interesting to note how many advances are overlooked
in our education, pretty much because they didn't happen here.
Brunel is God, in my personal opinion the second most important Victorian after Queen Victoria!
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