daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 27th, 2007, 11:05 PM   #1201
Monkey
BANNED
 
Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Londinium
Posts: 14,103
Likes (Received): 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I think Londoners, or certainly regular Tube users, would generally object to mobile phone aerials in tunnels due to the annoyance factor.
You can get mobile reception in the underground rail system of every other large city I have been to. It's really annoying that London hasn't introduced this yet. It muist damage our competitiveness.
Monkey no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 28th, 2007, 12:45 PM   #1202
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
You can get mobile reception in the underground rail system of every other large city I have been to. It's really annoying that London hasn't introduced this yet. It muist damage our competitiveness.
Last time I checked our customers realistically didn't have much choice!

Dunno about mobile phones working on other networks either... I've travelled on a fair few over the past 5 years and don't recall anyone making calls in tunnels anywhere.

As I said, I reckon the majority of hardened commuters would welcome phone reception being unavailable, especially now the 'Connect' system has been introduced which ensures flawless communications during incidents.

I could think of nothing worse than half a dozen people barking into their phones on a packed Victoria Line train, or people's phones ringing with their oblivious owners listening to their ipods.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 01:26 PM   #1203
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,953
Likes (Received): 781

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
You can get mobile reception in the underground rail system of every other large city I have been to. It's really annoying that London hasn't introduced this yet. It muist damage our competitiveness.
This could also be due to most networks around the world not being as deep as many London Tube lines.

We have phone access in Frankfurt, but it's sparotic. I am guessing it's only because the lines are not very deep and signal is seeping through.
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 01:44 PM   #1204
TallBox
Registered User
 
TallBox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,132
Likes (Received): 424

How do oyster readers that inspectors carry, work? Do they detect the date:time of it's last use (travelcards)? Or whether money has been deducted recently (pay as you go)? Or whether it is simply valid?
TallBox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 02:00 PM   #1205
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
This could also be due to most networks around the world not being as deep as many London Tube lines.

We have phone access in Frankfurt, but it's sparotic. I am guessing it's only because the lines are not very deep and signal is seeping through.
Yes I'd assume that's the case. Many metros are built cut & cover below roads with just a raft of steel and the road surface between the tunnels and the outside world, so its no different to being in a building's basement really. Even London's shallow cut & cover tunnels are built with a brick arch above the tracks and tons of brickwork / earth above, so this generally blocks the signal.

Even so, mobile phone signals do seep down to parts of London's cut & cover lines through stations and ventilation shafts, if you don't believe me watch your reception as you travel along the District line and you'll see it often registering something (but not much and never for long).
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #1206
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun View Post
How do oyster readers that inspectors carry, work? Do they detect the date:time of it's last use (travelcards)? Or whether money has been deducted recently (pay as you go)? Or whether it is simply valid?
Pass. They seem to display an awful lot of information though, as I've overheard inspectors grilling passengers on bendy buses before and they were telling them when / where they last swiped it to the minute and the exact location. Big Brother is watching us indeed!

Funnily enough my staff pass expires 31st December 2069... I wonder if I'll live to see it expire? ...I'd be 92!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 02:16 PM   #1207
TallBox
Registered User
 
TallBox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,132
Likes (Received): 424

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Pass. They seem to display an awful lot of information though, as I've overheard inspectors grilling passengers on bendy buses before and they were telling them when / where they last swiped it to the minute and the exact location. Big Brother is watching us indeed!
scary stuff indeed, thanks!
TallBox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 02:01 AM   #1208
lasdun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 364
Likes (Received): 7

The cultral Brunel references go into overdrive in Swindon, Brunell Tower, Brunell roundabout, Brunel road and onwards (it helps that he's the only person of any value to have any association with the town).
lasdun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 02:09 AM   #1209
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
The cultral Brunel references go into overdrive in Swindon, Brunell Tower, Brunell roundabout, Brunel road and onwards (it helps that he's the only person of any value to have any association with the town).

What about Billie Piper?
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 03:02 AM   #1210
Stuu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 166
Likes (Received): 44

Sorry but that is bollocks about other networks being nearer the surface. The Paris metro, and the RER have mobile phone service everywhere, which is plainly much deeper, as does the Hong Kong metro. In fact, I was in Hong Kong 3 years ago and every lift you got into had a little plaque telling you which mobile network covered it. The basic fact is we are too scared that it will be used for bombs to allow it. When the connect project was first announced it was stated there would be capacity for mobile phone networks. I'm so glad they didn't, it would be such a nightmare to contend with all the "I'm stuck on the train"
Stuu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 02:32 PM   #1211
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuu View Post
Sorry but that is bollocks about other networks being nearer the surface. The Paris metro, and the RER have mobile phone service everywhere, which is plainly much deeper, as does the Hong Kong metro. In fact, I was in Hong Kong 3 years ago and every lift you got into had a little plaque telling you which mobile network covered it. The basic fact is we are too scared that it will be used for bombs to allow it. When the connect project was first announced it was stated there would be capacity for mobile phone networks. I'm so glad they didn't, it would be such a nightmare to contend with all the "I'm stuck on the train"
but as been said before, the Madrid bombs were set off by mobile phone internal clocks NOT via text message or phone call - i.e. they didn't need reception. The London Tube bombs were set off by bloody suicide bombers and had nothing to do with phones. I honestly don't think any sensible person believes having mobile phone reception increases the likelihood of a bomb going off - i think most people are concerned about the annoyances of idiots who like to yak about their privates live loudly in crowded, confined public spaces.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #1212
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuu View Post
Sorry but that is bollocks about other networks being nearer the surface. The Paris metro, and the RER have mobile phone service everywhere, which is plainly much deeper, as does the Hong Kong metro. In fact, I was in Hong Kong 3 years ago and every lift you got into had a little plaque telling you which mobile network covered it. The basic fact is we are too scared that it will be used for bombs to allow it. When the connect project was first announced it was stated there would be capacity for mobile phone networks. I'm so glad they didn't, it would be such a nightmare to contend with all the "I'm stuck on the train"
What's your surname, 'Pid'?
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2007, 02:34 AM   #1213
Truepioneer
Registered User
 
Truepioneer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: East London
Posts: 144
Likes (Received): 0

Tubeman:

Was there ever a propsal to extend the Bakerloo Line past its Elephant & Castle terminus. Possibly going down Old Kent Road through Blackheath and terminating at Bexelyheath?. Or maybe going down Camberwell Green through Crystal Palace terminating at either Croydon or Catford?

How about any consideration in extending the Victoria Line down through Streatham to Mitcham or Carshalton?

An alternative, to spread out the concentration of commuters, on NR can obviously be used in some of these areas. Guess the East London Line will fufill some of that demand.
Truepioneer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2007, 12:47 PM   #1214
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truepioneer View Post
Tubeman:

Was there ever a propsal to extend the Bakerloo Line past its Elephant & Castle terminus. Possibly going down Old Kent Road through Blackheath and terminating at Bexelyheath?. Or maybe going down Camberwell Green through Crystal Palace terminating at either Croydon or Catford?

How about any consideration in extending the Victoria Line down through Streatham to Mitcham or Carshalton?

An alternative, to spread out the concentration of commuters, on NR can obviously be used in some of these areas. Guess the East London Line will fufill some of that demand.
Yes... The Bakerloo Line was never intended to halt suddenly at Elephant & Castle, it was always supposed to continue south to at least Camberwell. Beyond E&C the tunnels continue for some distance and swing southwards to point at Camberwell, the redundant lengths of tunnel today used for stabling 4 trains (2 in each tunnel). I don't know what the original 1900's planned route was beyond E&C, but the idea of a southwards extension has never gone away and it got as close as the proposed extension to Camberwell appearing on the Tube map in the 1950's.

It resurfaced in the late 1980's in Paul Channon's London transport review, this time the proposed extension continued eastwards from E&C and surfaced just east of Bricklayer's Arms roundabout at the north end of the Old Kent Road on the site of the by then recently abandoned Bricklayer's Arms goods station. It followed the alignment of the abandoned goods line to a point just south of South Bermondsey station (still easily traced on an A to Z) before rising up to join the main lines out of London Bridge (all the chords and viaducts are still there even today, much overgrown). The Bakerloo Line was from there to have passed through Lewisham before completely taking over the Hayes (Kent) mainline route, thus serving Ladywell, Catford, Beckenham, Elmers End (etc). Sadly not long after this great proposal British Rail flogged all the land of the Bricklayer's Arms goods station and the extensive approach tracks and today it its covered in 1980's 'Brookside' houses and warehouses, so opportunity lost.

More recently Red Ken has stated his desire for the Bakerloo Line to extend south to Camberwell, but without any funds to back this up its unlikely to happen... We've been waiting forever for someone to find the money for 200 metres of track between Watford (Met) and Croxley Green for years, so a new 'Tube' extension is looking beyond the realms of possibility.

My personal preferred route would see stops at Walworth, Camberwell Green, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Brockley and Lewisham, possibly taking over the Hayes branch as previously proposed.

The Victoria Line, like the Bakerloo Line, was never supposed to grind to a halt in inner-city South London. As originially planned it was to continue south along the A23 through Streatham, Norbury, Thronton Heath and terminating at Croydon. Money ran out, but more importantly the line has been such a success that it now doesn't have the capacity to accommodate any more passengers on the southern section, pretty much killing off any hopes of an extension. The only serious proposal recently has been more for operational reasons: a single-track reversing loop from Brixton southbound to Brixton northbound with a single platform at Herne Hill, this is to reduce the bottleneck at Brixton, where a very intensive service currently has to reverse at Brixton's 2 platforms and a single 'scissors' crossover. I am in favour of this proposal, but thousands of mainline commuters would pour off the various mainline services passing through Herne Hill every morning, thus putting more strain on a line already at full capacity.

My personal way forward for developing London's rail would be to focus on increasing frequency / capacity on Network Rail lines and combine this with some strategically placed, relatively short, new 'Tube' lines traversing Central London which will link strategic Network Rail stations like Clapham Junction, Willesden Junction, Stratford, Peckham Rye, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Hampstead (etc) as well as putting inner-city areas with no Tube service on the map like Battersea, Chelsea, Camberwell, Walworth, Peckham, Hackney, Clapton etc. Current Underground Lines are inefficient in that they have central sections groaning under the weight of passengers combined with suburban and even rural lengths sparsely used off-peak that do not need anywhere near the frequency of service currently provided. Shorter, high-frequency Tube lines in Inner London will provide much better cost-benefit than a sprawling new 50km line. It is certainly conceiveable that with automation they could even become highly proftable.

My blueprint for new lines is for completely driverless trains running along tunnels with an escape passageway. Trains would be despatched from each platform by staff watching the platforms via CCTV, this way one staff member can remotely operate 3 or 4 trains. They would have real-time CCTV views of each carriage and the ability to make Public Address announcements into each carriage. If an evacuation was necessary then passengers would be guided to the nearest station along the emergency walkway by announcements and lights. This way staffing is kept to a minumum, along with costs, and all of the operational problems resulting from Train operators bound to a particular train (late running, exceeding duty paramenters, short meal reliefs) are avoided, thus when there is an incident like a person under train service can literally commence straight after the cleanup without the current chaos with drivers in the wrong place / needing relief etc.

The unions would never swallow it though, because it spells their demise
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2007, 02:11 AM   #1215
James
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 315
Likes (Received): 0

Hi Tubeman,

Here's a dumb question - do you think that the Northern express line would ever get built - at least putting some of the abandoned infrastructure that was put into place in WW2 into use? If it was to be built, what sort of an alignment do you think it would travel, once outside the existing built stations?
James no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2007, 02:28 AM   #1216
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
Hi Tubeman,

Here's a dumb question - do you think that the Northern express line would ever get built - at least putting some of the abandoned infrastructure that was put into place in WW2 into use? If it was to be built, what sort of an alignment do you think it would travel, once outside the existing built stations?

No, far too ambitious. I think only a very limited amount of infrastructure was built anyway, namely the deep-level platforms at Clapham which became air raid shelters, and after WW2 accommodation for newly arrived West Indian immigrants.

They should certainly concentrate on getting the current Northern Line working before anything else!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2007, 10:17 AM   #1217
Jean Luc
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 460
Likes (Received): 15

G'day Tubeman!

In your estimation, how much of the overcrowding on central London tube lines is caused by commuters changing from mainline services at terminal stations to the underground, in order to complete their journies into the centre?

If any of the Crossrail proposals were built would this problem be alleviated, and if so, by how much?
Jean Luc no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2007, 12:59 PM   #1218
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
G'day Tubeman!

In your estimation, how much of the overcrowding on central London tube lines is caused by commuters changing from mainline services at terminal stations to the underground, in order to complete their journies into the centre?

If any of the Crossrail proposals were built would this problem be alleviated, and if so, by how much?
A significant percentage, but I wouldn't like to hazard a guess. Some termini are within walking distance of workplaces (e.g. Liverpool Street, Moorgate, Fenchurch Street, Blackfriars, Cannon Street are all in 'The City' and London Bridge is a short walk over the river), whereas others like Victoria, Waterloo, King's Cross, Euston, Marylebone and Paddington are not within easy walking distance of either The City or the West End. Of course that's not to say that everyone works in The City or The West End, or even that everyone coming into Liverpool Street works in The City... So its hard to gauge.

I'd hazard a guess that perhaps 80% of passengers alighting at Victoria or Paddington during the morning peak have an onward tube journey to their ultimate destination, but perhaps only 30% at the 'City' termini like Liverpool Street or Fenchurch Street. Cannon Street probably has the lowest as South-eastern and Southern services offer it as one of three terminus choices (Charing Cross = West End, Cannon Street = City, London Bridge = all trains), so I presume that the vast majority of passengers using Cannon Street are City workers who then walk... certainly my anecdotal evidence having been a District Line driver suggests Cannon Street station is never particularly busy in terms of people waiting for the underground during the morning peak or alighting off it during the evening peak.

Therefore, Crossrail would have limited impact on Liverpool Street tube compared to Paddington, but the latter is not that busy compared to the goliaths of london commuter traffic like Waterloo and Victoria. By far the best proposal to reduce mainline to Tube transfers would be a Crossrail scheme involving the lines into Victoria which serves the West End and City, before perhaps taking over the entire C2C network to the east. Bear in mind the C2C mainline between Barking and Fenchurch Street gets by with a mere 2 tracks, so it follows that if they dived into a 2-track tunnel in the Bromley-by-Bow area the entire C2C service could be diverted via this Crossrail to Victoria. The now redundant C2C viaduct between Bow and Fenchurch Street could be converted to DLR, also allowing quadrupling of the DLR between Limehouse and Tower Gateway which could be closed in favour of Fenhcurch Street. I would suggest closing Fenchurch Street for redevelopment, but the air rights have already been sold and utilised by a giant office block. The former C2C east of Limehouse could become a new DLR service calling at a new station on Burdett Road, then on to Bromley-By-Bow, and then along the alignment of the Northern Outfall sewer which strikes a long, straight slash across Newham Borough to Beckton, where it could run straight into the existing Beckton terminus (which faces West), providing a huge loop service around Newham Borough.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2007, 08:39 PM   #1219
Dothog
On the bog
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: London
Posts: 388
Likes (Received): 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I'd hazard a guess that perhaps 80% of passengers alighting at Victoria or Paddington during the morning peak have an onward tube journey to their ultimate destination, but perhaps only 30% at the 'City' termini like Liverpool Street or Fenchurch Street.
What are the nine escalators to the Central Line at Liverpool Street there for then?
Dothog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2007, 10:47 PM   #1220
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dothog View Post
What are the nine escalators to the Central Line at Liverpool Street there for then?
9? I can only recall a bank of 3
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
london, railways, tube

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium