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Old March 9th, 2007, 10:43 PM   #1221
Rational Plan
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There are three escalator shafts at liverpool street. I remember them putting an extra one in when the redeveloped the station with the Broadgate development.
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Old March 10th, 2007, 03:07 AM   #1222
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There are three escalator shafts at liverpool street. I remember them putting an extra one in when the redeveloped the station with the Broadgate development.

Thank you for confirming that. I don't know where he was getting 9 from
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Old March 10th, 2007, 03:14 AM   #1223
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There's nine. At least, there were 3 hours ago.

Bank of three in the main ticket hall and another two banks of three each open at peak hours only in the western ticket hall.

But despite this, I'd agree. There are less people joining the central line at liverpool street than at Stratford or Mile End where cross platform interchange is very tempting. Lots of people do get off though.
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Old March 10th, 2007, 02:20 PM   #1224
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There's nine. At least, there were 3 hours ago.

Bank of three in the main ticket hall and another two banks of three each open at peak hours only in the western ticket hall.

But despite this, I'd agree. There are less people joining the central line at liverpool street than at Stratford or Mile End where cross platform interchange is very tempting. Lots of people do get off though.
Fair enough, but the original post I was responding to conjoured up images of a bank of nine.
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Old March 10th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #1225
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Ah.

Yes a bank of nine would be fun... the biggest I can think of is the 5 at Canary Wharf.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #1226
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Ah.

Yes a bank of nine would be fun... the biggest I can think of is the 5 at Canary Wharf.
Yeah I suppose that must be the record in London... One less, but my personal favourite is the upper bank of escalators at Holborn with 4 very long parallel escalators. I use them every day, and its quite a spectacle descening them in the morning peak with the other three sets coming upwards all crammed with hundreds of people. Couldn't find decent pics illustrating this though...



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Old March 12th, 2007, 12:27 AM   #1227
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Tubeman, has the issue yet been raised of the DLR possibly being unable to accommodate the volume of commuters in the CW area, as it quickly develops, with high-density office and residential space? Perhaps one day needing to be replaced with high capacity heavy rail transport?

Here in Toronto during the mid-80s a DLR stlye service was built in favour of an actual subway extension. This was obviously for cost saving reasons. The service is now at capacity and can no longer cope with the population growth. Suggestions are now being brought up of taking down the light rail system and building the original proposed subway extension in it's place.

I can easily see this situation happening in East London, with the DLR, as development increases there.
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Old March 12th, 2007, 01:04 AM   #1228
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Tubeman, has the issue yet been raised of the DLR possibly being unable to accommodate the volume of commuters in the CW area, as it quickly develops, with high-density office and residential space? Perhaps one day needing to be replaced with high capacity heavy rail transport?

Here in Toronto during the mid-80s a DLR stlye service was built in favour of an actual subway extension. This was obviously for cost saving reasons. The service is now at capacity and can no longer cope with the population growth. Suggestions are now being brought up of taking down the light rail system and building the original proposed subway extension in it's place.

I can easily see this situation happening in East London, with the DLR, as development increases there.
With the addition of the Jubilee Line in 1999 and hopefully Crossrail Line 1 within the next 6 years the DLR is becoming more of a 'feeder' system, connecting the new docklands neighbourhoods with the Tube / rail system. As DLR stops are generally much closer together than Tube or rail stops, its never going to be very attractive over longer distances. As is always the case there wasn't enough foresight: I suppose the amount of development in the area, especially the Isle of Dogs, was far beyond anyone's wildest dreams 20 years ago.

From this...



To this...



...In less than 20 years

Because of the sharp curves and steep gradients of the DLR route it can never be converted into conventional rail, but with the capacity expansion (trains being extended by 50% from 2 units to 3) it will certainly hold its own at least until Crossrail 1 takes some of the strain. Despite the closely-spaced stations it is generally pretty zippy and very efficient... and to be honest with hindsight I think the DLR's format is ideal for the area when considered in conjunction with its connectivity with the Tube and mainline services.

The Isle of Dogs, although only a peninsula in a meander of the Thames, is effectively an island with only 2 roads on and off, to that ends the meandering, frequently stopping DLR route serves the area much better than a single Tube or rail stop would.
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Old March 12th, 2007, 11:07 PM   #1229
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A question not directly related to the tube - but NR... and I thought you might know the answer.

A geeky thing that has always bugged me on railways - and I see them all over London railways - are signals where the 'traffic light' has an "arm" of lights that sometimes all turn on white next to the signal. When these lights are lit what do they mean?
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Old March 12th, 2007, 11:37 PM   #1230
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
A question not directly related to the tube - but NR... and I thought you might know the answer.

A geeky thing that has always bugged me on railways - and I see them all over London railways - are signals where the 'traffic light' has an "arm" of lights that sometimes all turn on white next to the signal. When these lights are lit what do they mean?
They're the route indicator, London Underground signals have them too. They're found on controlled signals with an associated set of points... points have a 'normal' and 'reverse' position, a 'straight' green with no route indicator indicates points are 'normal', green with the lights indicates points are 'reverse'. The NR and LUL indicators are exactly the same principle, but on NR they have 5 white bulbs, but LUL only 3.

The 'bar' or 'harbour lights' as they're coloquially known 'point' in the direction that they take you... for example at Gunnersbury eastbound a 'straight green' (no harbour lights) takes you straight on to South Acton while green with the 'harbour lights' pointing 45 degrees to the right takes you right towards Turnham Green.

An actual set of 5-light Network Rail junction indicator lights, this would give technically 3 routes (diagonal, horizontal and neither):



At some more complex locations a single signal can take you along mutliple routes, in this instance more than one set of 'harbour lights', at different angles, are displayed:

[img]http://www.**********/faq/images/junction.gif[/img]

The signal on the right can give 4 different routes to a driver, the three directions of 'harbour lights' plus the 'straight green' with none of them.

Have I explained this well enough?
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Old March 13th, 2007, 02:14 AM   #1231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
With the addition of the Jubilee Line in 1999 and hopefully Crossrail Line 1 within the next 6 years the DLR is becoming more of a 'feeder' system, connecting the new docklands neighbourhoods with the Tube / rail system. As DLR stops are generally much closer together than Tube or rail stops, its never going to be very attractive over longer distances. As is always the case there wasn't enough foresight: I suppose the amount of development in the area, especially the Isle of Dogs, was far beyond anyone's wildest dreams 20 years ago.



To this...



...In less than 20 years

Because of the sharp curves and steep gradients of the DLR route it can never be converted into conventional rail, but with the capacity expansion (trains being extended by 50% from 2 units to 3) it will certainly hold its own at least until Crossrail 1 takes some of the strain. Despite the closely-spaced stations it is generally pretty zippy and very efficient... and to be honest with hindsight I think the DLR's format is ideal for the area when considered in conjunction with its connectivity with the Tube and mainline services.

The Isle of Dogs, although only a peninsula in a meander of the Thames, is effectively an island with only 2 roads on and off, to that ends the meandering, frequently stopping DLR route serves the area much better than a single Tube or rail stop would.
I suppose DLR style service would be perfect to fill in the gap between buses/trams and heavy rail/underground service when it comes to frequency and capacity.

Not to mention the DLR offers some fanastic views of East London.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 06:25 PM   #1232
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double post.

Last edited by lasdun; March 13th, 2007 at 06:34 PM. Reason: double post.
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Old March 13th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #1233
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Re. holborn, as an LSE student for three years I was often seen at 5 past 10 running up the escallators and even more offen stumbling down them again at half eleven. I know what your talking about with the 3 up one down effect. The downside at holborn is the horrific walking conflicts at the bottom, I'd like to dig the middle two another 3 meters down, and have an underpass to the picadilly line escalators.

There isn't enough thought put into grade free pedestrian junctions

On the DLR the majority of the routes are radial or feeders, Crossrail 1 needs to fill in the missing links but its a pretty sound system. Bus service is pretty poor and the road layout isn't that great for them.

What would you think to demolishing West India Quay? There is an underpass planned as part of the capacity enhancements but with three car trains the gap between CW, Poplar and WIQ is getting rather ridiculious. I guess a four platform station is handy to have, but Poplar is only one stop away. I'd say extend the Poplar bridge into the billingsgate site and remove the station. It'd also cut of the minute that Langdon Park is going to add to my journey...
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Old March 13th, 2007, 11:19 PM   #1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
They're the route indicator, London Underground signals have them too. They're found on controlled signals with an associated set of points... points have a 'normal' and 'reverse' position, a 'straight' green with no route indicator indicates points are 'normal', green with the lights indicates points are 'reverse'. The NR and LUL indicators are exactly the same principle, but on NR they have 5 white bulbs, but LUL only 3.

The 'bar' or 'harbour lights' as they're coloquially known 'point' in the direction that they take you... for example at Gunnersbury eastbound a 'straight green' (no harbour lights) takes you straight on to South Acton while green with the 'harbour lights' pointing 45 degrees to the right takes you right towards Turnham Green.

An actual set of 5-light Network Rail junction indicator lights, this would give technically 3 routes (diagonal, horizontal and neither):



At some more complex locations a single signal can take you along mutliple routes, in this instance more than one set of 'harbour lights', at different angles, are displayed:

[img]http://www.**********/faq/images/junction.gif[/img]

The signal on the right can give 4 different routes to a driver, the three directions of 'harbour lights' plus the 'straight green' with none of them.

Have I explained this well enough?
absolutely!

I shall be sleeping easy tonight

cheers tubeman!
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Old March 13th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #1235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
Re. holborn, as an LSE student for three years I was often seen at 5 past 10 running up the escallators and even more offen stumbling down them again at half eleven. I know what your talking about with the 3 up one down effect. The downside at holborn is the horrific walking conflicts at the bottom, I'd like to dig the middle two another 3 meters down, and have an underpass to the picadilly line escalators.

There isn't enough thought put into grade free pedestrian junctions

On the DLR the majority of the routes are radial or feeders, Crossrail 1 needs to fill in the missing links but its a pretty sound system. Bus service is pretty poor and the road layout isn't that great for them.

What would you think to demolishing West India Quay? There is an underpass planned as part of the capacity enhancements but with three car trains the gap between CW, Poplar and WIQ is getting rather ridiculious. I guess a four platform station is handy to have, but Poplar is only one stop away. I'd say extend the Poplar bridge into the billingsgate site and remove the station. It'd also cut of the minute that Langdon Park is going to add to my journey...
Yeah I think WIQ is pretty pointless: Poplar and Crossrail 1 will serve North Quay / Billingsgate, and with the 3-car upgrade we'll have the lunacy that Canary Wharf and WIQ will be roughly a train's length apart! Can't see any other DLR stations worth sacrificing though...
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Old March 14th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #1236
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Odd Victoria line train

Hi Tubeman

After many months I have finally confimred my fiancees tales of a Victoria line train that has door side perch seats and just four longditudinal seats between the double doors. It's only the first two carriages, perhaps on just one train?

Any ideas what this is all about? Something to do with prototyping for the new fleet of trains perhaps?

James
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Old March 14th, 2007, 07:23 PM   #1237
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Originally Posted by Acemcbuller View Post
Hi Tubeman

After many months I have finally confimred my fiancees tales of a Victoria line train that has door side perch seats and just four longditudinal seats between the double doors. It's only the first two carriages, perhaps on just one train?

Any ideas what this is all about? Something to do with prototyping for the new fleet of trains perhaps?

James
More likely a prototype design for the current refurbishment (i.e. the one completed in the 1990's), although I'd have to see it with my own eyes to judge this. It would seem a bit odd, but not impossible, to try out layouts for the new trains in existing cars.
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Old March 14th, 2007, 07:50 PM   #1238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
What would you think to demolishing West India Quay? There is an underpass planned as part of the capacity enhancements but with three car trains the gap between CW, Poplar and WIQ is getting rather ridiculious. I guess a four platform station is handy to have, but Poplar is only one stop away. I'd say extend the Poplar bridge into the billingsgate site and remove the station. It'd also cut of the minute that Langdon Park is going to add to my journey...
West India Quay could go, but I'd like to see another bridge link between Canary Wharf and the dockside other than the green bridge we currently have. It's quite a walk between the two, and the walk by Aspen Way from Poplar is not the nicest.

Once Crossrail comes and North Quay is built it will link the whole lot so hopefully this will complete this part of the Estate.

I'm more pissed off with the extra DLR line being proposed - it slices right under the 3-way interchange which will block off any pedestrians underneath. Wasn't this space to become one of the Mayor's World Squares?
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Old March 16th, 2007, 04:04 AM   #1239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
More likely a prototype design for the current refurbishment (i.e. the one completed in the 1990's), although I'd have to see it with my own eyes to judge this. It would seem a bit odd, but not impossible, to try out layouts for the new trains in existing cars.
I did a bit more digging and came up with these photos of Victoria Line Unit 86 - a prototype for the refurbishment of Piccadilly Line trains.
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Old March 16th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #1240
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Ah, good find... so I was semi-right then!
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