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Old March 30th, 2007, 08:56 AM   #1261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
- In 2005/06, the busiest stations on the Tube network were (1) King's Cross St. Pancras - 71.50 million; (2) Victoria - 67.82 million; (3) Waterloo - 67.40 million...
I wonder, by how much, will this number increase next year with the move of the Eurostar terminal?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:07 PM   #1262
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Originally Posted by sweek View Post
What's the top speed trains are allowed to reach in the tunnels, actually?
Pass. In the Channel Tunnel proper I think the top speed is limited to 100mph / 160kmh, but I don't know if this applies to the CTRL London tunnels too. This might explain why the whole venture will only shave 20 minutes off the time from London to the tunnel.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:18 PM   #1263
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Originally Posted by ADCS View Post
That's interesting, especially the part about the night staff. I was recently in New York for the first time, and of course, comparisons of the Subway with the Underground (which I had used before) arose. I noticed things close up much earlier in London than I was used to in the United States; places would be closed at 6 or 7 where it would be 8 to 10 here.

Maintenance is always the sticky point, isn't it?
Yes generally shops do close pretty early in London, although even 20 years ago everywhere was pretty much 9 to 5 opening, half day Saturday and closed all day Sunday so its improved a lot. Most high street shops would be open until at least 18:00, with shops like Borders, HMV, Virgin etc (i.e. books / music / DVDs) opening late night these days.

And yes, maintenance is the main practical difference between London and New York in terms of 24 hours metros. But its a useful excuse for us, too.. as for all the reasons I outlined earlier, I don't actually think anyone in London Underground actually wants it.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:21 PM   #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
- In 2005/06 the Tube carried 971 million passengers and in 2004/5 976 million
That's a big drop due to 7/7 and 21/7 there... I think a lot of people decided to walk / cycle more in the Summer of 2005 because of the terrorist attacks and because we had such good weather, but rapidly flocked back when it got cold and wet again! What a fickle bunch...

Good we bounced back to a record ridership within just a year though
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:23 PM   #1265
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Anyone seen this? It was on the news here a few days ago: Man skis down an up escalator at Angel station... What a lunatic!



...Don't try this at home, kids!
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Old March 30th, 2007, 12:45 PM   #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post

...Don't try this at home, kids!
Well I don't have an escalator at home!

At least he had friends keeping people away from that particular escalator, so it wasn't actually that dangerous. I think it's a pretty nice stunt.

The Ghosts of the Underground show is also on Youtube now, if anyone feels like watching it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR_MHdMBu2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2yElhOkrqI
I did last night and was quite happy I didn't have to get on the tube right after.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 02:29 PM   #1267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It goes under absolutely nowhere of interest to be honest, just some pretty grotty bits of East London. Regarding the depth, I'm not entirely sure... pretty deep to avoid disturbance and vibration at ground level, but varying depending on other Tube lines etc, e.g. at Highbury & Islington where it needs to cross below the Victoria and Great Northern & City Line tunnels.
Amazing to think that all that boaring and construction has gone on under everyone's noses.

Where do you see Eurostar going to in the future? I know of a potential rail link onwards to Amsterdam.

If given the choice I would rather spend 5hours on a comfortable train to say..Germany than fly.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 04:34 PM   #1268
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Good news Europe has now three subway systems over the billion !
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Old March 30th, 2007, 04:40 PM   #1269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riise View Post
I wonder, by how much, will this number increase next year with the move of the Eurostar terminal?
The answer is in the article above. The increase will come from several factors - not just Eurostar:


King's Cross St Pancras remains the Tube's busiest station with nearly 72 million passengers, with the numbers using the station expected to reach 127 million by 2016.

This is in part due to the transfer of Eurostar services to St. Pancras later this year, and in coming years the opening of a new Thameslink station at King's Cross, the start of domestic services on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link and the extension of King's Cross mainline station.

To meet this growing demand, LU last year opened the new Western Ticket Hall at the Tube station which doubled the station's capacity.

Work is now well underway on the new Northern Ticket Hall, which is due for completion in 2010.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 04:44 PM   #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minato ku View Post
Good news Europe has now three subway systems over the billion !
Paris, London, and?...

I presume the third can only be Moscow? So Europe 'proper' as opposed to EU
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Old March 30th, 2007, 04:54 PM   #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstar View Post
Amazing to think that all that boaring and construction has gone on under everyone's noses.

Where do you see Eurostar going to in the future? I know of a potential rail link onwards to Amsterdam.

If given the choice I would rather spend 5hours on a comfortable train to say..Germany than fly.
I think Madrid, Barcelona, Northern Italy and perhaps even as far east as Warsaw should all be competitive eventually.

Hopefully Amsterdam, Hamburg and Cologne shouldn't be too far off.

Budget airlines providing cheap, short european flights can't go on forever: oil prices have to rise eventually and out of green concerns more and more tax is going to be loaded on air travel. HSR is the future in Europe.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 04:55 PM   #1272
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Yes it is Moscow.

176 million for St Pancreas in 2016 it is only for the subway station or for the whole station ?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 04:58 PM   #1273
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Originally Posted by minato ku View Post
Yes it is Moscow.

176 million for St Pancreas in 2016 it is only for the subway station or for the whole station ?
As its in the context of Tube journeys only, I suspect it refers to just the Tube station. Most users of King's Cross or St Pancras mainline stations would probably also be Tube passengers.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 06:02 PM   #1274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minato ku View Post
Yes it is Moscow.

176 million for St Pancreas in 2016 it is only for the subway station or for the whole station ?
It's 127 million, but that's the tube station only.
Next to that there's:
- King's Cross: 21 million
- King's Cross Thameslink: 7.7 million
- St. Pancras station: 5.4 million

Obviously passengers do change from one to another, so you can't just add the numbers I suppose.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #1275
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127 million for the Tube only !
It is a very high number.
It include transfert between two tube lines ?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 06:46 PM   #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Pass. In the Channel Tunnel proper I think the top speed is limited to 100mph / 160kmh, but I don't know if this applies to the CTRL London tunnels too. This might explain why the whole venture will only shave 20 minutes off the time from London to the tunnel.
I believe that the speed in the channel tunnel is controled by speed of the shuttle trains which is 160 kmh. Restricting the Eurostar trains will maximize the number of train paths in the tunnel. I have read that the maximum speed west of Ebbsfleet is less than 230 kmh but details of the speed in the tunnels is hard to find.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 06:51 PM   #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
The CTRL tunnel (rather boringly) follows the route of existing railway lines above pretty much, deviating slightly either side of Stratford.
....
Regarding the depth, I'm not entirely sure... pretty deep to avoid disturbance and vibration at ground level, but varying depending on other Tube lines etc, e.g. at Highbury & Islington where it needs to cross below the Victoria and Great Northern & City Line tunnels.
Not deep enough to save people's back gardens from collapsing
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...0/ai_n12671913
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Old March 31st, 2007, 05:06 AM   #1278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
[...]I believe that the speed in the channel tunnel is controled by speed of the shuttle trains which is 160 kmh. Restricting the Eurostar trains will maximize the number of train paths in the tunnel. [...]
Interestingly enough, the 160kmh top speed was an economic (construction cost, construction time) decision
and is determined by the number, size of and spacing of cross-tunnel pressure relief ducts.
See http://groups.google.com/group/misc....2f9f0348b64e66

That doesn't mean that pathing (capacity maximization) isn't the practical
driving force behind Eurotunnel operating speed: see http://groups.google.com/group/uk.ra...519bc8dfd256bd
Brian Williams, who despatches trains for Eurotunnel and who wrote the last-referenced message,
has posted a lot of interesting and factual information on the subject over the years:
http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...rt=0&scoring=d

Note that a flight of two successive of 160kmh Eurostars consumes three 140kmh (normal shuttle speed) slots.
They're timetabled to run following each other because otherwise the loss of throughput due to speed differential would be even larger.

Last edited by Richard Mlynarik; March 31st, 2007 at 08:08 AM.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 05:08 AM   #1279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
[...]I have read that the maximum speed west of Ebbsfleet is less than 230 kmh but details of the speed in the tunnels is hard to find.
240kmh
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Old March 31st, 2007, 08:08 AM   #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
In relation to the above topic, is there an inverse relationship between speed and capacity on any given line (tube, mainline, whatever) operating trains of a given length? [...]
Sort of, but not exactly.

See for example chapter 3 of the TCRP Report 13: "Rail Transit Capacity"
(from the USA, but, surprisingly, not wrong about basic rail operations)
http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs...p_rpt_13-b.pdf

Or do the obvious web searches to find more.

Minimum headways fall rapidly with increasing line speed, then increase
more slowly as train speed increases.
(A rough first approximation is
headway = constant + (TrainLength / LineSpeed) + constant * (LineSpeed / Deceleration)
which one can easily see drops rapidly (TrainLength / LineSpeed) as speed rises from zero and trains can clear blocks more quickly,
then increases more slowly (LineSpeed / Deceleration) as trains take longer to start/stop.)

A lot of people have spent a lot of time thinking about this sort of thing,
because the potential savings (in terms of expensive infrastructure and
rolling stock) are so enormous.
There's a lot of information out there, much of it not in English.
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