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Old March 31st, 2007, 05:36 PM   #1281
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Old April 1st, 2007, 11:00 PM   #1282
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Bit OT, but what do you think of the disabled symbols on the map now Tubeman? Personally I can't stand them. Where there's an interchange, like Waterloo, they look confusing (three circles, but only one with the wheelchair symbol), and they've made the DLR look a real mess. I understand that they could be helpful, and (perhaps) they could be useful on the card folder; but on the large maps there's a perfectly good key for that sort of thing.

Also, do you think that the addition of the Overground will be positive or negative to the map?
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 03:35 AM   #1283
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Bit OT, but what do you think of the disabled symbols on the map now Tubeman? Personally I can't stand them. Where there's an interchange, like Waterloo, they look confusing (three circles, but only one with the wheelchair symbol), and they've made the DLR look a real mess. I understand that they could be helpful, and (perhaps) they could be useful on the card folder; but on the large maps there's a perfectly good key for that sort of thing.

Also, do you think that the addition of the Overground will be positive or negative to the map?

I hate them too. They make a design classic look messy: we should just have an advisory phone line or webpage for MIPs giving real-time information about the step-free acess on their desired journey, because no amount of symbols on a map will help you if you get to your destination to find the lifts out of order.

I've already seen a prosaic 'Tube' map with the 'Overground' lines on it produced by TFL, and it looks pretty good. My only criticism is they are all the same, i.e. there is no distinction between Gospel Oak - Barking, East London Line, North London Line etc. I think the distinct services should receive distinct branding.
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 11:39 AM   #1284
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Tubeman (and others):

Just wondering why the proposed orbital line around inner London is to be part of the overground rather than the underground? Is it because it mostly is above-ground? Will the service still share the tracks with other trains e.g. longer distance commuter serivces or freight trains? I've never been to London but I would assume that the areas where it will run through are fairly densely populated and could therefore justify an underground service. Also I've seen pictures of the new trains which will operate the service and they only have two sets of doors on each side of each carriage. Wouldn't this slow down loading and unloading, especially at peak times, thus increasing station dwell times, increasing headways and reducing the frequency of the service?
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 02:51 PM   #1285
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Tubeman (and others):

Just wondering why the proposed orbital line around inner London is to be part of the overground rather than the underground? Is it because it mostly is above-ground? Will the service still share the tracks with other trains e.g. longer distance commuter serivces or freight trains? I've never been to London but I would assume that the areas where it will run through are fairly densely populated and could therefore justify an underground service. Also I've seen pictures of the new trains which will operate the service and they only have two sets of doors on each side of each carriage. Wouldn't this slow down loading and unloading, especially at peak times, thus increasing station dwell times, increasing headways and reducing the frequency of the service?
The Outer Circle / Orbirail /whatever it'll be branded as consists almost entirely of Network Rail routes, the only exception being the eastern side of the circle which will be formed by the East London Line (which I think is destined to ultimately effectively become part of the NR network too). The other three sides of the circle (the North, West and South London Lines) are London's busiest freight arteries and so this precludes the outer circle from being a London Underground service or having that sort of frequency service.

The issue with the rolling stock is valid... It looks like they've just ordered pretty standard NR-compatible EMUs 'off the shelf' so to speak, without much thought to the nature of the service and the number of doors per car this would demand. I have a feeling that a combination of this, freight paths, signalling issues and lack of funding may make this route with great potential not ever fully realise it.
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 06:23 PM   #1286
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I'd suggest it's a question of politics. Ken is putting a lot of political capital into this project - in no small part I would suggest that that is because it is deliverable within an electoral term. He has to run for election again in may 2008, coincidently the Overground starts running a few months before!

I'm not being a cycnical as I may appear, this is just the reality of these things, if it can't give a result within 4 years politicians are not going to be so interested because the voters arn't impressed by long term planning.

This means you have off the shelf trains (look how long the S and 09 Stocks are taking to develop). Two doors isn't great but there will be longtitudinal seating, so it's not the nightmare we have now...

Last edited by lasdun; April 2nd, 2007 at 06:25 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old April 3rd, 2007, 05:52 AM   #1287
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Dearest Tubeman,

Being an Australian, I'm quite sick of there being no REAL metros in my country. Do you think there will ever be? Or will Australia continue to rely on an s-bahn style system?

Sydney is desperate for more lines, as are most other cities. Do you have any predictions?

Cheers.

PS: I still want to marry you! :P
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Old April 3rd, 2007, 08:35 AM   #1288
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Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
Dearest Tubeman,

Being an Australian, I'm quite sick of there being no REAL metros in my country. Do you think there will ever be? Or will Australia continue to rely on an s-bahn style system?

Sydney is desperate for more lines, as are most other cities. Do you have any predictions?

Cheers.

PS: I still want to marry you! :P
Hi City_Thing. I'd like to throw my 2cents worth in here.

The main problem Australian cities have is a lack of density. With the exception of Sydney, pretty much all of the other major cities cross from the high density downtowns to almost sububia very quickly. You don't need to travel far out of downtown to see the beginning of single detached houses.

Of cause, recently more apartment complexes have been built in the central ring surrounding Australian downtowns recently, and this may seem like a level of high density to Australians, but compared to most cities of Europe or Asia this is still quite low in density levels.

As underground metro's cost an enormous amount of money, it is important that there is the customer base existing in the area's that they are built.

Sydney is different, and I believe that it's density levels are sufficiant to justify a proper metro, though small network. Although most of those higher density area's are already covered by the suburban rail lines - which is logical, as they developed first and grew the quickest because of the existing lines. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sydney be first to develop Australia's first full metro. And of cause, Sydney's current suburban network is very similar to the Parisian RER or German S-bahn system, which in the central parts operates similar to a metro.

But back to density, compare cities in Europe, where metro systems are common, with that of Australian cities. Most Australian cities are far larger than equivilent (population) sized European cities in geographical area. This is of cause due to the lower densities that create sprawl. In cities like these, suburban and commuter lines are more logical than metro services. In the tighter European urban area's, metro systems made sense as large numbers of people need to travel short distances and a dedicated metro can make this quick and easy. Of cause, they also have suburban and commuter systems like those found in Australia for the outer, less dense districts.
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Old April 3rd, 2007, 09:57 AM   #1289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
Dearest Tubeman,

Being an Australian, I'm quite sick of there being no REAL metros in my country. Do you think there will ever be? Or will Australia continue to rely on an s-bahn style system?

Sydney is desperate for more lines, as are most other cities. Do you have any predictions?

Cheers.

PS: I still want to marry you! :P
There's nothing wrong with the S-Bahn type of system as long as its comprehensive... I think the problem with both Sydney and Melbourne is lack of coverage within the CBD. I suppose in Melbourne's case its akin to what London would be like with the Circle Line, everything outside of it, but nothing inside it. In a slightly different way the City Loop in Sydney really just serves as a terminal loop for trains in from the suburbs, the Cityrail is pretty useless in terms of moving around the CBD easily.

Sydney actually staggers me that everything revolves around one bridge. I know the ferries are fairly good, but what Sydney desperately needs is a couple of metro lines crossing under the harbour below the bridge, maybe one from Potts Point to Taronga Zoo and another traversing the harbour mouth, linking Manly and the eastern suburbs to the city. Perhaps a couple of lines crossing the CBD with closer-spaced stops than Cityrail would help movement around the city centre?

Will it ever happen? I very much doubt it. Metro lines seem to get more and more expensive to build each year in relative terms, so if it hasn't happened by now, it'll probably never happen.

...Oh, and I'm already married!
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Old April 3rd, 2007, 12:26 PM   #1290
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An underground rail line from Chatswood to Epping is currently under construction, but will operate regular CityRail double deck suburban rolling stock, as it links to two existing suburban lines.

There is a proposal for a new line under the harbour and the CBD, and I think it would carry suburban trains as well, rather than metro stock, as it too would link existing suburban lines. Check these out:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...123901385.html.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfern...y_line,_Sydney
Whether this line will get built is anyone's guess, as it will be very expensive.

The are two proposed lines on Sydney's outskirts, one to the northwest (partly underground) and one to the southwest (entirely above ground AFAIK). Hopefully they will be built within 10-15 years. Trains will run between them via the line under the harbour and CBD. Here is a map showing how all three rail proposals, as well as the one under construction, tie in to one another: http://www.metrostrategy.nsw.gov.au/...e_D7_large.gif

Last edited by Jean Luc; April 3rd, 2007 at 01:44 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 12:13 AM   #1291
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Tubeman Ive just read this shocking so called 'fact'

'Travelling on the tube for 40 minutes is the equivalent of smoking two cigarettes - so save yourself a packet, all you smokers and get on the tube more often. '

Hope this isnt true...
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Old April 4th, 2007, 08:05 AM   #1292
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Tubeman Ive just read this shocking so called 'fact'

'Travelling on the tube for 40 minutes is the equivalent of smoking two cigarettes - so save yourself a packet, all you smokers and get on the tube more often. '

Hope this isnt true...
Nah, that bullshit. Air quality is actually better on the Tube than at street level in terms of hazardous gases like Carbon Monoxide, Sulphur Dioxide, Ozone and Nitrogen Dioxide (i.e. air pollution from cars). The Tube has a lot of particulate pollution (i.e. tunnel dust), but this isn't harmful.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 09:51 AM   #1293
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Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Tubeman Ive just read this shocking so called 'fact'

'Travelling on the tube for 40 minutes is the equivalent of smoking two cigarettes - so save yourself a packet, all you smokers and get on the tube more often. '

Hope this isnt true...
It is also said that 30minutes walking down a busy road is the equivilent of smoking 10 cigarettes. Don't know of cause how true any of this is.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #1294
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Well since when did cars expel tar and nicotine? It's rubbish...

It may refer to Carbon Monoxide emissions... because I can't think of any other pollutants common to both air pollution and smoking a cigarette.
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Old April 5th, 2007, 12:38 AM   #1295
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These comparisons are rubbish, really. But what can you say, even the odd academic needs to spice up his studies.
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Old April 6th, 2007, 05:02 AM   #1296
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West India Quay could go, but I'd like to see another bridge link between Canary Wharf and the dockside other than the green bridge we currently have. It's quite a walk between the two, and the walk by Aspen Way from Poplar is not the nicest.

Once Crossrail comes and North Quay is built it will link the whole lot so hopefully this will complete this part of the Estate.

I'm more pissed off with the extra DLR line being proposed - it slices right under the 3-way interchange which will block off any pedestrians underneath. Wasn't this space to become one of the Mayor's World Squares?
What extra line is this?
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Old April 6th, 2007, 12:58 PM   #1297
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What extra line is this?
http://developments.dlr.co.uk/enhanc...se2/option.asp

Delta Junction improvements
The Delta Junction is the point where a number of DLR routes meet just to the north of West India Quay station. The junction’s current layout places a restriction on the frequency of DLR services that can operate. As part of these proposals, DLR intends to change the layout of the tracks at the junction to improve operations and to potentially run more trains.

Preferred option: The favoured option is to provide a new viaduct under the existing junction (a 'fly-under' arrangement). This option is shown on the plan.

http://developments.dlr.co.uk/pdf/en...ase2/delta.pdf
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Old April 8th, 2007, 03:27 PM   #1298
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The Outer Circle / Orbirail /whatever it'll be branded as consists almost entirely of Network Rail routes, the only exception being the eastern side of the circle which will be formed by the East London Line (which I think is destined to ultimately effectively become part of the NR network too). The other three sides of the circle (the North, West and South London Lines) are London's busiest freight arteries and so this precludes the outer circle from being a London Underground service or having that sort of frequency service.
So no doubt they've chosen to use existing ROWs as it is a lot cheaper - little or no property resumption or tunnelling is required. However, do you think that they should have included the Docklands (Canary Wharf etc) in the loop seeing that it's a major employment area, or are the DLR and JLE sufficient? Can the cost of tunnelling out to there be justified, or will their decision to go for the cheap option now turn around and bite them on the bum in the long term?
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Old April 9th, 2007, 08:34 AM   #1299
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So no doubt they've chosen to use existing ROWs as it is a lot cheaper - little or no property resumption or tunnelling is required. However, do you think that they should have included the Docklands (Canary Wharf etc) in the loop seeing that it's a major employment area, or are the DLR and JLE sufficient? Can the cost of tunnelling out to there be justified, or will their decision to go for the cheap option now turn around and bite them on the bum in the long term?
Obviously if an Outer Circle were being planned from scratch (i.e. not utilising existing lines) then having it traverse the Isle of Dogs would be far more preferable... In fact the route would be completely different, I'm sure.

It will be a frustrating route, to be honest: No interchange with the Piccadilly Line ('misses' west of Earl's Court and north of Caledonian Road), it 'misses' both Northern Line branches north of Camden Town, it 'misses' the Victoria Line at Brixton unless new platforms are built on the high South London Line viaduct above the existing NR station, and it just 'misses' Clapham Junction... It'll plod along slowly and certainly won't be a very attractive alternative to crossing Central London by Tube.

I think Canary Wharf will be well enough connected without a diversion of Orbirail, especially if / when Crossrail 1 opens.
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Old April 14th, 2007, 03:54 AM   #1300
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Arsenal vs The Tube. Which is better?
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