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Old April 27th, 2007, 04:33 PM   #1341
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Thanks, didn't know they are called moquette. Some designs are really fantastic. Some more examples of moquettes here.
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Old April 27th, 2007, 06:20 PM   #1342
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I've just come across this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3895769.stm Apparently, it's so noisy that it can damage one's hearing! I love that line!

Also, I have a question, can you post in my "Favourite Subway Trains" thread cause everyone is ignoring it
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Old April 28th, 2007, 12:45 AM   #1343
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I want a moquette cushion!
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Old April 28th, 2007, 02:29 PM   #1344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
No they are the same, they were originally built to slightly smaller dimensions than the Yerkes standard when they were opened 107 years ago, but were expanded when the Central London railway was absorbed by London Transport. The only explanantion I can offer is that the Central Line cars seem to have straight sides extending higher than most other stock, i.e. the curve of the roof starts higher up, so the cars feel a bit wider. I think the seats are narrower too, giving more floorspace between them. The tunnels are the same size as standard for sure, as the Stock used to be interchangeable (1962 stock displaced by the 1992 stock was transferred to the Northern Line to replace the most dilapidated 1959 stock during the 1990's). Quite a few of the ex-Central Line 1962 stocks I used to drive on the Northern Line still have Central Line route maps in the cabs and 'Central Line' stickers in the windows!
The feeling of space, I personally think, comes from the larger windows. I dont know who these people are who didnt like how their reflection looked, but it's a shame all new tube stock is going to continue having these tiny claustrophobic windows.
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Old April 28th, 2007, 02:50 PM   #1345
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The feeling of space, I personally think, comes from the larger windows. I dont know who these people are who didnt like how their reflection looked, but it's a shame all new tube stock is going to continue having these tiny claustrophobic windows.
The original City and South London trains (known as padded cells) didn't have windows at all, just ventilation openings. The argument was that, since they ran through tunnels, there was nothing to see. The train guard would announce each station when the train arrived.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 06:27 PM   #1346
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Three questions:

1) I heard that the new 2009 stock for the Victoria line will only be able to fit in Victoria line's tunnels, does this mean that the Victoria line has larger tunnels or something?

2) If there is another "tube" line built, bar crossrail, will it be standard tube size tunnels or will they make it larger and put big trains inside? I'd prefer tube tunnels as it's more "London" myself.

3) Has the JLE got larger tunnels? If so does it mean larger trains could go along that section of the line?
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Old April 30th, 2007, 08:35 PM   #1347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Three questions:

1) I heard that the new 2009 stock for the Victoria line will only be able to fit in Victoria line's tunnels, does this mean that the Victoria line has larger tunnels or something?
Yerkes tunnels are 3.56m in diameter. Victoria tunnels are 3.71m for better air resistance. (http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/intro.html)

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2) If there is another "tube" line built, bar crossrail, will it be standard tube size tunnels or will they make it larger and put big trains inside? I'd prefer tube tunnels as it's more "London" myself.
Who knows? Bigger tunnels are more expensive.

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3) Has the JLE got larger tunnels? If so does it mean larger trains could go along that section of the line?
JLE tunnels are 4.35m across. Some of this is used for a walkway there is room for higher trains; however the 1939 tunnels between Baker Street and Finchley Road rule out anything bigger than standard tube trains. (www.davros.org/rail/culg/jubilee.html).
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Old April 30th, 2007, 08:46 PM   #1348
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It's not always the shear physical size of the tunnels that limits the type of trains that can be used. If the tunnels have small radius horizontal curves, some trains will not be able to use them because of the projection of the ends and middle of each coach (known as the end and centre throw).
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Old April 30th, 2007, 10:20 PM   #1349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dothog View Post
JLE tunnels are 4.35m across. Some of this is used for a walkway there is room for higher trains; however the 1939 tunnels between Baker Street and Finchley Road rule out anything bigger than standard tube trains. (www.davros.org/rail/culg/jubilee.html).
Thanks, but for this answer I was asking whether or not a bigger train could fit just in the JLE tunnels and not the rest of the line, I was just wondering really.

Thanks a lot for the rest of the answers they were interesting, and no i'm not a terrorist.
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Old April 30th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #1350
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I think your questions have generally been answered, although I'd add to #2 that yerkes diameter tunnels would not be built again for a newly built line... I'm certain room for a walkway would be stipulated like on the JLE and DLR tunnels.
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Old May 1st, 2007, 12:37 AM   #1351
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Quote:
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I think your questions have generally been answered, although I'd add to #2 that yerkes diameter tunnels would not be built again for a newly built line... I'm certain room for a walkway would be stipulated like on the JLE and DLR tunnels.
What i'm asking is whether they would make the tunnels large enough for 'normal' trains to fit in, or make them like the JLE where as far as i'm aware, 'normal' trains cannot fit into.
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Old May 1st, 2007, 10:10 AM   #1352
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
What i'm asking is whether they would make the tunnels large enough for 'normal' trains to fit in, or make them like the JLE where as far as i'm aware, 'normal' trains cannot fit into.
If it were a self-contained Tube line like the Vic then possibly a bit larger, but I think a bore wide enough to accommodate mainline loading gauge would be deemed excessive really. Also don't forget that stock is transferred between lines generally so if the new line received stock via another Tube line then the trains couldn't be any larger (e.g. all Northern Line stock comes via the Piccadilly Line, Bakerloo via the Jubilee etc).

I think somewhere in between with a link to SSR somewhere would be ideal... a 'hybrid' tunnel diameter giving a bit more room than current Tube stock but without going to the excess of being large enough to accommodate mainline trains.

The JLE was constrained by the fact a portion of the line is traditional pre-WW2 Tube (Baker Street to Finchley Road), with the 1970's extension to Green Park also the same diameter. Therefore, other than installing the walkway alongside the track there was no point in making the JLE tunnels any wider.
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Old May 1st, 2007, 01:15 PM   #1353
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They are referred to as 'Moquette' and are a nice feature of Underground trains. They are actually designed to look brighter and cleaner the more worn they are, as the fibres are compacted down the fabric becomes more reflective. You can even buy cushions covered in Moquette from the London Transport Museum!



Classic D Stock Moquette on the left (also used in a lot of buses), the one on the right looks like the Bakerloo line one.

An old 1959 Stock train... towards the end of their life damaged seats were replaced with leftover 1962 stock seats from ex-Central Line trains to cut costs, so there were a lot of 'Frankenstein' trains around with different moquettes inside:



New Piccadilly Line moquette



C Stock moquette + pigeon passenger... green, yellow and pink splashes for the District, Circle and Hammermsith & City Lines:



Mostly from here
Wouldn't vandalism (e.g. slashing) be a problem with these? How would grafitti (either paint or ink) be removed?
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Old May 1st, 2007, 02:07 PM   #1354
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Wouldn't vandalism (e.g. slashing) be a problem with these? How would grafitti (either paint or ink) be removed?
Seats do get slashed, but very rarely in my experience. This sort of damage results in repairs (stitches) or wholesale replacement depending on the severity.

I have occasionally seen marker pen tags on seats, but due to the patterning on the moquettes they aren't very distinct and so this isn't very common either. Its certainly preferable to the moulded plastic seats or plain leather / PVC seen on many other metro trains which are much easier to tag and result in much clearer tags.

They're designed to be very durable and not to show up stains / tags readily due to the 'busy' geometric patterns, they're very effective... and very comfortable compared to moulded plastic seats in particular.
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Old May 1st, 2007, 07:42 PM   #1355
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Yes, but spillage is a problem. A friend of my once sat on one of those and got her bottoms wet and chilly for a while.
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Old May 1st, 2007, 09:43 PM   #1356
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Yes, but spillage is a problem. A friend of my once sat on one of those and got her bottoms wet and chilly for a while.
Pretty rare though... I must have ridden the Tube on average 2,000 times a year since I was 12 (so about 35,000 times!) and have not yet sat in anything bar chewing gum once.
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Old May 1st, 2007, 09:54 PM   #1357
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If it were a self-contained Tube line like the Vic then possibly a bit larger, but I think a bore wide enough to accommodate mainline loading gauge would be deemed excessive really. Also don't forget that stock is transferred between lines generally so if the new line received stock via another Tube line then the trains couldn't be any larger (e.g. all Northern Line stock comes via the Piccadilly Line, Bakerloo via the Jubilee etc).

I think somewhere in between with a link to SSR somewhere would be ideal... a 'hybrid' tunnel diameter giving a bit more room than current Tube stock but without going to the excess of being large enough to accommodate mainline trains.

The JLE was constrained by the fact a portion of the line is traditional pre-WW2 Tube (Baker Street to Finchley Road), with the 1970's extension to Green Park also the same diameter. Therefore, other than installing the walkway alongside the track there was no point in making the JLE tunnels any wider.
So do you think if they constructed a new line it would have tube-shaped trains just larger or conventional shape?

Sorry bout all the questions, I seem to have asked the most out of anyone in existance!

But i'll continue...

Do you think the so-called 'Chelney line' which is dubbed to be a Crossrail line will end up as a normal tube line, isn't that what happenned with the Victoria line anyway?

Also, I have a question about Canning Town station, when the new DLR route to Stratford International opens will it use the North London line platforms, or will they connect it to the upper level DLR ones? It seems ridiculous if the former is chosen, since if one wants to travel to the airport, there will be trains coming from both the ex North London line platforms and the DLR ones! Meaning half the service for each platform...
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Old May 1st, 2007, 11:09 PM   #1358
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So do you think if they constructed a new line it would have tube-shaped trains just larger or conventional shape?

Sorry bout all the questions, I seem to have asked the most out of anyone in existance!

But i'll continue...

Do you think the so-called 'Chelney line' which is dubbed to be a Crossrail line will end up as a normal tube line, isn't that what happenned with the Victoria line anyway?

Also, I have a question about Canning Town station, when the new DLR route to Stratford International opens will it use the North London line platforms, or will they connect it to the upper level DLR ones? It seems ridiculous if the former is chosen, since if one wants to travel to the airport, there will be trains coming from both the ex North London line platforms and the DLR ones! Meaning half the service for each platform...
As all new lines in London are going to be bored deep tunnel (I can't see 'Cut & Cover' going down too well anymore!), they will all have a circular profile... This is the case for all new tunnels like the HEX tunnel, CTRL and Crossrail. The circular profile is strong and is obviously the result of rotating tunnelling machines... in short it is the easiest tunnel profile to build. The shape of the train will obviously be dependent on the size of the bore: the smaller the bore the more circular the trains will be in profile... certainly as I already mentioned the Tube dimensions are not ideal and would not be dreamt of for a newly built line.

Regarding Chelsea-Hackney / Chelney / Crossrail 2 I think the trend is away from new Tube lines and toward Crossrail-type projects, so no I don't think we'll ever see a 'Chelney' Tube line, but possibly Crossrail 2 which will follow the same route through Central London, but will instantly tap in to a multitude of suburban mainline services as opposed to being a self-contained Tube line.

Finally, as far as I'm aware the DLR extension to Stratford International will run through the recently closed Silverlink platforms at Canning Town... As you point out this will lead to the odd situation where southbound trains to the same destination (e.g. City Airport) will call at two different platforms on two levels, which is less than ideal. There will be a complex set of flying junctions to the south-east of Canning Town where the routes from Central London and Stratford will converge then diverge into the routes to Woolwich and Beckton (and Dagenham Dock in the future).

And please, ask away... I enjoy answering the questions!
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Old May 1st, 2007, 11:45 PM   #1359
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Tubeman - long time listener first time caller...

Do you think there's any prospect of a new traditional tube lines to a place not already on the network (Inner south east London, Hackney etc.) being proposed or do you think this perceived shift to 'mainline underground' will mean places like Peckham are just going to have to do without?
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Old May 1st, 2007, 11:54 PM   #1360
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Pretty rare though...
Hmmm, it happened two mornings in a row some summer ago, coffee or tea on each fabricked seat. The first morning the bus seat was on the back bench, while the following one was on the front one. I've since found many spills, people are careless over here.
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