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Old May 14th, 2007, 04:17 AM   #1441
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Will the congestion charge ever be used to help finance more Tube lines? I know it's used for the buses at the moment, but they have really improved now (well, except for dropping the routemasters). So what about other projects.

Does anyone know how much the congestion charge brings in every year?
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Old May 14th, 2007, 05:53 PM   #1442
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Quote:
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Will the congestion charge ever be used to help finance more Tube lines? I know it's used for the buses at the moment, but they have really improved now (well, except for dropping the routemasters). So what about other projects.

Does anyone know how much the congestion charge brings in every year?
Not enough for a new Tube Line, that's for sure!

Yes ideally that would be the case, but by the time you subtract the cost of administrating the CC plus the millions being lost by people riding Bendy buses for free there's probably enough left over for a coat of paint and a dozen lightbulbs!
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Old May 14th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #1443
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Not enough for a new Tube Line, that's for sure!

Yes ideally that would be the case, but by the time you subtract the cost of administrating the CC plus the millions being lost by people riding Bendy buses for free there's probably enough left over for a coat of paint and a dozen lightbulbs!
Bendy buses. I do like Ken Livingstone but those things were a dreadful idea.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 12:24 AM   #1444
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Bendy buses. I do like Ken Livingstone but those things were a dreadful idea.
I couln't agree more
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:18 AM   #1445
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I couln't agree more
I know! Why did he bother with them?

Also, how many tph are there on each line in the central section? How does it compare to other systems around the world?
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:03 PM   #1446
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Bendy buses make me so furious! When riding into work the are so difficult to pass, drivers always pull out and as they are so long when the turn corners are always pushing into the cycle lane. Let alone the above they always block intersections, make it difficult to cross the road, and the amount of hobos on it is insane and yet after living in London for over 2 years im yet to see a disabled person use one!!! ARGHHHHH
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Old May 15th, 2007, 06:57 PM   #1447
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I know! Why did he bother with them?

Also, how many tph are there on each line in the central section? How does it compare to other systems around the world?
Maybe he got a nice Merc for his trouble? I really don't know.

Just had a lovely journey on one... the heaters were blasting out hot air making the bus like a sauna, even though the windows were all open they provided minimal ventilation, and I was sat near a tramp who stank of piss who wouldn't have been on a Routemaster as the Clippie would have kicked his arse off the bus.

20 minutes on a pissy sauna

I really don't get the obsession with cranking up the heating on the bendies... Even last month when it was very pleasant indeed most had the heaters on all day, and even in Winter I don't see why they should be on so hot as everyone's wearing heavy jackets, so the last thing you want is to get on a stuffy bus heated to 25C.

I'm certain that state-of-the-art Mercedes buses come with air con as standard... a ridiculous decision must have been made to order them without air con... cost saving? to help the environment? **** knows! As they are obviously designed to have air con as standard the windows are crappy little slits which open 45 degrees giving nil ventilation. Oh but don't worry, they painted the rooves white to reflect the sun's heat... that's alright then

Plus, they take up far too much roadspace... 3 turn up at once and the back of the third bus is about 75 metres from the bus stop, and I've often seen people missing the bus they wanted because it stopped so far from the stop they're waiting at becuase of other bendies in front.

I hate them!

The day the Routemaster retired from my route (the 38) I was genuinely very upset indeed... I'm a transport nerd anyway, but to me the RM was an utter institution: a part of London died the day it was withdrawn

Regarding tph through Central London...

20-30 is normal (i.e. a train every 2-3 minutes), probably more likely closer to 20 than 30 per timetable. In the 1930's some lines managed in excess of 30tph due to a proliferation of signals, but many of these were ripped out to minimise the number of signal failures and cheapen maintenance costs when usership fell in the 1960's amd 70's. Technically, with ATO, lines like the Central or Victoria could manage maybe a train a minute... But this means that there'd be a distinct lack of trains elsewhere on the line, and journey times would be extended as trains pause in tunnels waiting for the train in front to depart a platform. If anything goes wrong, you have dozens of trains stuck in tunnels.

A train every 2 minutes (30tph) is probably the realistic top frequency of any system.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 09:23 PM   #1448
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Thanks for that. Apparently, when new ATO comes for the Vic they'll be able to cram 33tph onto the line. Doubt we can trust metronet though!
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Old May 16th, 2007, 12:48 AM   #1449
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I actually quite like the bendy buses. They're comfortable, and I think quite suitable for frequent, very busy lines without too many turns. I use the 29 all the time and double deckers just wouldn't be able to cope with the amount of traffic that's usually there. The time it takes for people to enter and exit is also reduced drastically.
I've never even noticed the heating, by the way?
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Old May 16th, 2007, 12:50 AM   #1450
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LOL you must be a reptile... or maybe its only the 38's which are afflicted by year-round furnace-like heating?
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:53 AM   #1451
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I actually quite like the bendy buses. They're comfortable, and I think quite suitable for frequent, very busy lines without too many turns. I use the 29 all the time and double deckers just wouldn't be able to cope with the amount of traffic that's usually there. The time it takes for people to enter and exit is also reduced drastically.
I've never even noticed the heating, by the way?
The 29 takes sooooooooo long to get into town. Its at LEAST an hour on the 29, compared to about 25 mins on the Tube (and despite everyones moaning, i rarely have any delays when using the tube)

I wish they would introduce 'Express Buses' that only stop at the main transport interchanges/shopping hubs etc. Most people are on the bus for the long haul - its just an annoying individual or two that uses the smaller bus stops, which slows the whole journey down for everyone else. They could leave the regular buses for the annoying people that get on/off at awkward stops
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Old May 16th, 2007, 01:42 PM   #1452
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I never actually take the 29 into town. I mostly take it between Turnpike Lane, Harringay and Camden Town, but no further than that. The reason I don't think express buses would really be helpful is because the reason buses are slow is not really the number of stops (not during the daytime anyway), but the amount of other traffic that's there. But maybe it could help, I don't know. I wouldn't be against it anyway.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 05:30 PM   #1453
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Tubeman,

-How come the Metropolitan line's Amersham branch isn't in the "normal" zones?
-Do drivers put their lights on, and can they see in front of them?
-If Crossrail ever gets built, will it appear on the tube map, or do you think it will effectively destroy the aesthetics of it?
-Will the new Victoria line signalling be "fixed block" or "moving block" signalling?
-Do the new Vic trains have the long type carriages or the shorter ones?

Thanks in advance...

Last edited by iampuking; May 16th, 2007 at 05:54 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 05:57 PM   #1454
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Quote:
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Tubeman,

-How come the Metropolitan line's Amersham branch isn't in the "normal" zones?
-Do drivers put their lights on, and can they see in front of them?
-If Crossrail ever gets built, will it appear on the tube map, or do you think it will effectively destroy the aesthetics of it?
-Will the new Victoria line signalling be "fixed block" or "moving block" signalling?

Thanks in advance...
1) Its just so far from London physically... The Epping end of the Central Line also used to lie outside Zone 6 for the same reason, but was brought in when the Epping-Ongar service ended.

2) Not much in the tunnels. You mainly look at a reflection of yourself with the light on, but at least you get someone to talk to

I used to always have it on for 3 reasons:

- So I could wave at my mates as I passed them
- So I could eye up talent on the platforms
- Apparently it discourages people from jumping uder your train

3) I'm pretty sure it would. As its a strategic move to reduce congestion on east-west tube lines it would be a strange decision to leave it off the map. It needn't ruin the aesthetics of the map provided its drawn on well.

4) Moving block, I'd have thought
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Old May 16th, 2007, 09:16 PM   #1455
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Do the headlights light up the tunnels much then?

Also I have questions about the new "S" Stock:

Aren't the walk through carriages a bit dangerous? If there was a bomb the debris could travel through the entire train... And what if the train stopped suddenly, or there was a crash, couldn't the passangers be thrown much further? Also, will they bet entirely walk-through or be like the DLR with cars that are divided?

Oh yeah and: How does the Moscow Metro get cram enough trains for every 90 secs?

Sorry and thanks!

Last edited by iampuking; May 16th, 2007 at 09:40 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 12:53 AM   #1456
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Quote:
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Do the headlights light up the tunnels much then?

Also I have questions about the new "S" Stock:

Aren't the walk through carriages a bit dangerous? If there was a bomb the debris could travel through the entire train... And what if the train stopped suddenly, or there was a crash, couldn't the passangers be thrown much further? Also, will they bet entirely walk-through or be like the DLR with cars that are divided?

Oh yeah and: How does the Moscow Metro get cram enough trains for every 90 secs?

Sorry and thanks!
Headlights are much more for the train to be seen by people on the track rather than anything to do with lighting up the tunnels... They barely light the tunnels at all, and to be blunt lighting up the tunnels is pretty pointless anyway as everything which the driver needs to see (signals, speed restrictions) are lit anyway.

Regarding walk-through carriages I'm under the impression they're going to just be like mainline EMUs, so the cars will still be separate but the communicating doors will be permissable for passengers to walk through as they'll be enclosed, so in effect the integrity of the cars will be no different to now. I don't think they'll be articulated.

Trains every 90 seconds or less occur on the Tube, but they aren't supposed to per timetable. At this frequency train speeds start slowing down and it becomes a bit of a false economy. Victoria Line trains could effectively come and go from a platform one after the other with only seconds separating them, but they would be crawling. As i said, 30 tph is probably the realistic optimum for a free-flowing, delay-free service. Any more frequent and trains stop-start a lot and journey times extend.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 05:00 AM   #1457
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So do you think the Moscow Metro has trains stopping in the tunnels and a less than efficient service?
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Old May 17th, 2007, 07:47 PM   #1458
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less than efficient service?
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Old May 17th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #1459
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Quote:
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or maybe its only the 38's which are afflicted by year-round furnace-like heating?

I think so...because when I lived in Ilford I used the 25 all the time and in winters I was freezing my ass off on my way to/from Whitechapel!
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Old May 17th, 2007, 09:33 PM   #1460
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So do you think the Moscow Metro has trains stopping in the tunnels and a less than efficient service?
Dunno... can't comment (and please don't get coth started! )

All I do know is that with conventional signalling frequencies above 30 tph will start to cause delays as trains are held up behind the train ahead as it stops at a station.
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