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Old May 31st, 2007, 05:54 PM   #1521
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Oh come on now!Northern Line isnt that bad.
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Old May 31st, 2007, 06:43 PM   #1522
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Oh come on now!Northern Line isnt that bad.
Yes it is! Sometime I have to wait for like 5 minutes for a train, the stations are all manky, the trains are too short and always crowded, the trains are too big for some stations, Camden town is just a mess and the DVA is annoying!

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Old May 31st, 2007, 08:01 PM   #1523
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I sounds like nothing has changed since I was commuting from Clapham Common to Hampstead
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Old May 31st, 2007, 09:14 PM   #1524
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Originally Posted by carlspannard View Post
One good idea would be for London Underground to put signs around Northern Line stations warning that you shouldnt use it if you are travelling to a schedule, e.g going to work, meeting someone at a certain time etc.


Perhaps their mission statement could be: "You'll get there eventually... probably"
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Old May 31st, 2007, 09:19 PM   #1525
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I sounds like nothing has changed since I was commuting from Clapham Common to Hampstead
jeez, so what that....about 3 hours each way?? would have been quicker walking.
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Old May 31st, 2007, 09:23 PM   #1526
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Insider info: I had lunch with the Chief Operating Officer Mike Brown (Tim O'Toole's number two) on Tuesday on account of my recent promotion to Middle Management, and he mentioned that a full split of the Misery / Northern Line is part of the long-term strategy of LU.

Another bit of info I just discovered since moving to the Bakerloo is that plans are quite far advanced for a southern extension of the Bakerloo beyond Elephant & Castle to Hayes (Kent)... I heard a cost of £3.5 billion mentioned today (i.e. no ******* chance!).

I can only assume it entails stops [give or take] at Walworth, Camberwell, Peckham, Nunhead, then hence over existing NR tracks taking over the Hayes branch beyond Lewisham. A good cost-benefit... Bakerloo Line capacity is under-utilised south of Waterloo and Walworth, Camberwell and Peckham could really do with Tube (utter shiteholes). It would then provide useful interchanges with NR / DLR at Lewisham as well as the Croydon Tramlink at Elmers End. It would also remove the perpetual headache of trying to reverse 24tph via Elephant & Castle's two platforms and single scissors crossover (an issue I am very rapidly becoming familiar with).
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Old May 31st, 2007, 09:35 PM   #1527
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jeez, so what that....about 3 hours each way?? would have been quicker walking.
I was living with my Aunt in Clapham and her coooking made it well worth while
and it was free
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Old May 31st, 2007, 09:58 PM   #1528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Insider info: I had lunch with the Chief Operating Officer Mike Brown (Tim O'Toole's number two) on Tuesday on account of my recent promotion to Middle Management, and he mentioned that a full split of the Misery / Northern Line is part of the long-term strategy of LU.

Another bit of info I just discovered since moving to the Bakerloo is that plans are quite far advanced for a southern extension of the Bakerloo beyond Elephant & Castle to Hayes (Kent)... I heard a cost of £3.5 billion mentioned today (i.e. no ******* chance!).

I can only assume it entails stops [give or take] at Walworth, Camberwell, Peckham, Nunhead, then hence over existing NR tracks taking over the Hayes branch beyond Lewisham. A good cost-benefit... Bakerloo Line capacity is under-utilised south of Waterloo and Walworth, Camberwell and Peckham could really do with Tube (utter shiteholes). It would then provide useful interchanges with NR / DLR at Lewisham as well as the Croydon Tramlink at Elmers End. It would also remove the perpetual headache of trying to reverse 24tph via Elephant & Castle's two platforms and single scissors crossover (an issue I am very rapidly becoming familiar with).
Wow really interesting news!

Is the Northern line split likely to happen in the way you have previously discussed? Any suggestion of a time frame? Surely though commuters on the existing South Branch will be peeved they have to change given their destinations are no longer on the current line...

Excellent "in theory" news on the Bakerloo front. 3.5bn though! Do lines really cost that much?

Did you get to question him on anything related to Chelney/CR2 ?
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Old May 31st, 2007, 10:08 PM   #1529
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Wow, that's interesting to read, Tubeman. After Nunhead I think a station at Brockley for interchange with the London Overground / extended East London Line would be very useful as well.

The Northern Line split had been mentioned before in certain documents. It just can't happen until Camden Town station is improved and enlarged - it'll become an even more important interchange if this happens, and it's too small already.

The Bakerloo extension southwards is very interesting! How likely would it be for the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line to be extended southwards from Kennington if this all happens? I know we're talking very long term developments here.

Last edited by sweek; May 31st, 2007 at 10:16 PM.
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Old May 31st, 2007, 10:30 PM   #1530
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Wow really interesting news!

Is the Northern line split likely to happen in the way you have previously discussed? Any suggestion of a time frame?
Yes. The layout at Kennington means that it must be the Bank branch that continues south to Morden (Bank branch trains can't access the Kennington Loop). Likewise as this means the Bank-Morden section would have one of the major overhaul depots (Morden), it follows that the Kennington-Charing Cross section must get the other (Golders Green) and so the Edgware Branch goes to the Kennington-Charing Cross line and the Barnet / Mill Hill branches go to the Bank-Morden Line.

A link between the two would need to be retained... The Bank Branch connects with the Piccadilly Line at King's Cross, so probably the southbound link between the Edgware Branch and the Bank Branch as Camden Town would be kept and the rest taken out of commission.

In terms of timeframe its technically a matter of reprinting all the maps, inventing a new name for one of the 'new' lines and devising a new timetable... It really is that straightforward. Quite possibly in time for ATO operation in 2011... but that's merely a guess on my part.

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Surely though commuters on the existing South Branch will be peeved they have to change given their destinations are no longer on the current line...
...If it imrpoves frequency and reliability between Morden and Kennington then it probably wouldn't be a problem... the interchange at kennington is cross-transfer so pretty painless.

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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Excellent "in theory" news on the Bakerloo front. 3.5bn though! Do lines really cost that much?
Well the JLE was £4 billion... the amount of tunnelling and brand new stations is less though, and the stations would no doubt be much less lavish (can't see Camberwell getting a station like Canary Wharf!), but the entire Hayes Branch would need to be upgraded to LUL standard which is 10 or so stations... unless we end up with a similar situation to the north end of the Bakerloo where LU trains serve NR stations (until November at least). Its a third of the conservative cost of the Crossrail 1 too, so it does seem fairly good value.

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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Did you get to question him on anything related to Chelney/CR2 ?
Didn't want to look like a nerd! But that's more of a TFL / NR issue... we certainly won't see anything until Crossrail 1 is built.
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Old May 31st, 2007, 10:38 PM   #1531
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Wow, that's interesting to read, Tubeman. After Nunhead I think a station at Brockley for interchange with the London Overground / extended East London Line would be very useful as well.
Indeed. I don't know if the extension is intended to surface at Nunhead and take over the lightly used link between there and Lewisham, or remain in tunnel until south of Lewisham to link up with the Hayes branch... My recollection is that Its all embankment / viaduct between Peckham Rye and Lewisham, so a surfacing tube line would have a mean gradient and cause a lot of disruption getting up to the existing line. If using the existing line new platforms could be built for Brockley, which is immediately south of that line, or if still in Tube a more convenient interchange could be built.

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The Northern Line split had been mentioned before in certain documents. It just can't happen until Camden Town station is improved and enlarged - it'll become an even more important interchange if this happens, and it's too small already.
Absolutely... I think this is the only major obstacle at present (Mike Brown said as such).

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Originally Posted by sweek View Post
The Bakerloo extension southwards is very interesting! How likely would it be for the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line to be extended southwards from Kennington if this all happens? I know we're talking very long term developments here.

Like the Bakerloo south of Waterloo, the new Kennington-Edgware line would have unused capacity south of Waterloo, so an extention off the Kennington Loop and south is completely plausible. My suggestion is:

Brixton - Brixton Hill - Streatham Hill - Streatham - Norbury

I think any further down London Road to Croydon and the line will get caned with too many passengers.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 01:42 AM   #1532
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Tubeman - Do we know what's happening with the Camden station enlargement. I remember it was a big deal when I lived up that way (2002, as a student, when I had hair and hope) but the market traders (and boy George) kicked up a huge fuss and I haven't heard anything since then.

I didn't really like the plans, but something does need to be done up there.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 08:19 AM   #1533
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Yes it is! Sometime I have to wait for like 5 minutes for a train, the stations are all manky, the trains are too short and always crowded, the trains are too big for some stations, Camden town is just a mess and the DVA is annoying!
If you have to wait 5 minutes for a train, and that qualifies it as a bad line, then you'd hate much of the world's networks. Here in "central" Frankfurt, off peak you can sometimes wait up to 20minutes for the next u-bahn. Even on peak I had to wait 5 minutes this morning.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 06:28 PM   #1534
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If you have to wait 5 minutes for a train, and that qualifies it as a bad line, then you'd hate much of the world's networks. Here in "central" Frankfurt, off peak you can sometimes wait up to 20minutes for the next u-bahn. Even on peak I had to wait 5 minutes this morning.
Well compared to other tube lines it isn't very good, i've never had to wait longer than 3 minutes for the Jubilee or Piccadilly and i've never had to wait longer than 2 minutes for the Central and Victoria!! In the central section of course, and when the service is running smoothly. It's amazing how many more people can flood the platforms when there are that extra 2 minutes top wait...

And great news about the Bakerloo Tubeman! If the stations aren't going to be like Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, will they be like say... Southwark?
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Old June 1st, 2007, 09:30 PM   #1535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Insider info: I had lunch with the Chief Operating Officer Mike Brown (Tim O'Toole's number two) on Tuesday on account of my recent promotion to Middle Management, and he mentioned that a full split of the Misery / Northern Line is part of the long-term strategy of LU.

Another bit of info I just discovered since moving to the Bakerloo is that plans are quite far advanced for a southern extension of the Bakerloo beyond Elephant & Castle to Hayes (Kent)... I heard a cost of £3.5 billion mentioned today (i.e. no ******* chance!).

I can only assume it entails stops [give or take] at Walworth, Camberwell, Peckham, Nunhead, then hence over existing NR tracks taking over the Hayes branch beyond Lewisham. A good cost-benefit... Bakerloo Line capacity is under-utilised south of Waterloo and Walworth, Camberwell and Peckham could really do with Tube (utter shiteholes). It would then provide useful interchanges with NR / DLR at Lewisham as well as the Croydon Tramlink at Elmers End. It would also remove the perpetual headache of trying to reverse 24tph via Elephant & Castle's two platforms and single scissors crossover (an issue I am very rapidly becoming familiar with).
Well the Camden station rebuild will eventually happen and it will be funded out of TFL's normal ten year plan, so the seperation of the Northern line should eventually happen (within 10 years).

I've always thought that the Bakerloo could be extended. Its one of the less crowded tube lines and the terminus in Elephant and Castle has always pointed so invistingly towards Lewisham. Indeed there must have been half a dozen plans over the years pointing towards that goal. But considering the grief of wringing any money out of thies government for transport then I'm not hopeful.

Maybe if a true London wide congestion charge, at least to zone three, was introduced then the funding could be found.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 09:44 PM   #1536
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Well compared to other tube lines it isn't very good, i've never had to wait longer than 3 minutes for the Jubilee or Piccadilly and i've never had to wait longer than 2 minutes for the Central and Victoria!! In the central section of course, and when the service is running smoothly. It's amazing how many more people can flood the platforms when there are that extra 2 minutes top wait...

And great news about the Bakerloo Tubeman! If the stations aren't going to be like Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, will they be like say... Southwark?
Sadly I wouldn't go so far as to calling it 'news' as such, although the scheme is being seriously investigated I sincerely doubt is ever comes to anything.

The section of the Northern Line with the best service is Kennington-Morden, I think trains turn up every 2-3 minutes in the peak. I find the Bank branch fairly 'poor' (perhaps 5-7 minutes off-peak), but this is still pretty good by world standards. The trouble is the line is so often disrupted that you're unlikely to ever be seeing the true timetable in action... I gave up using it despite living 2 minutes from Angel station as the number of times I spent the 2 minutes getting down to platform level from the entrance only to find a packed platform and the next train in 9 minutes I lost count of. I ended up catching the 38 or 19 buses from Angel to Holborn for the Piccadilly Line to Earl's Court, quicker and much less grief than the palaver of going one stop on the Northern to King's Cross.
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Old June 3rd, 2007, 03:54 AM   #1537
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Sadly I wouldn't go so far as to calling it 'news' as such, although the scheme is being seriously investigated I sincerely doubt is ever comes to anything.

The section of the Northern Line with the best service is Kennington-Morden, I think trains turn up every 2-3 minutes in the peak. I find the Bank branch fairly 'poor' (perhaps 5-7 minutes off-peak), but this is still pretty good by world standards. The trouble is the line is so often disrupted that you're unlikely to ever be seeing the true timetable in action... I gave up using it despite living 2 minutes from Angel station as the number of times I spent the 2 minutes getting down to platform level from the entrance only to find a packed platform and the next train in 9 minutes I lost count of. I ended up catching the 38 or 19 buses from Angel to Holborn for the Piccadilly Line to Earl's Court, quicker and much less grief than the palaver of going one stop on the Northern to King's Cross.
Thanks for that.

Tubeman, I asked this before but I think you missed it.. Would it ever be feasible to extend the platforms on the Northern line, maybe they could split the line first and then extend the platforms on the busier branch (Bank branch?) 6 cars seens insufficient...

Also, will the new 09TS for the Vic have longer cars like the 95/96TS or shorter ones like the 92TS?

Finally! Why in the refurbished stations has the "Mind the gap, please" been introduced? I noticed it at Bethnal Green and at Regent's Park when I went through it! Both stations aren't even on a curve! And why the hell do tourists find "Mind the Gap" so funny?

Last edited by iampuking; June 3rd, 2007 at 04:03 AM.
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Old June 3rd, 2007, 09:37 AM   #1538
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And why the hell do tourists find "Mind the Gap" so funny?
I can only guess it comes from some of the versions with a very strong, harsh but posh accent - which to tourists sounds so quintessential on their recent arrival in England.
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samples...e.php?id=12705

This version is also cool, you have to wait until the end...
http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samples...e.php?id=12710

There is a better version out there, which sounds like the speaker is smoking a pipe whilst in a smoking jacket and sitting on a great big armchair in front of the fire... But I can't be bothered looking for it.

The popularity of this phrase though has reached quite amazing levels. Although a few other networks around the world have used it as well (Toronto, Singapore and New York - where they changed it to "Watch the Gap") only the London one where it started is famous.

The phrase is well known enough for London Underground to print it on t-shirts and other souvenirs sold to the public.
The phrase also inspired songs of the same name by Judge Dread, The Soundtrack of Our Lives, Osamu Kubota, and Matrix.
The Thompson Twins called their tour of the UK, in 1984, the "Mind The Gap" tour.
In Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere, Richard Mayhew (the protagonist) ignores the warning and encounters a beast known as "The Gap".
In the videogame X2: The Threat, the phrase can be heard being broadcast in the space stations.
The phrase is the title of an interactive 'Tube map' showing the process of creativity and innovation with reference to Harry Beck, the tube map originator.
Composer Robert Steadman wrote an experimental composition entitiled Mind the Gap for cello orchestra, which depicts a journey around the Circle Line of the London Underground beginning and ending with the performers shouting "Mind the gap".
The phrase was sampled on The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu's album 1987 (What the **** Is Going On?).
On the Infected Mushroom album Converting Vegetarians (2003), the title track contains the line "Minding the gap since 1996".
Bentley Rhythm Ace has a song titled Mind The Gap
In the video game Halo 2, the phrase is one of many semi-humorous messages randomly broadcast through the loudspeakers on the railway station-based multiplayer level Terminal.
Mind the Gap is a recurrent theme and the title of a 2004 film written and directed by Eric Schaeffer.
The primeval man in the 1972 film Death Line can say only "mind the doors" - the original phrase spoken by the drivers before the automated system was put in place.
"Mind the Gap" is the name of a song created by Osamu Kubota for the video game Beatmania IIDX Happy Sky.
On The Ricky Gervais Show, Steve Merchant described a t-shirt he saw on a youth that read, "**** the Gap".
"Mind The Gap" is also the name of an album by German techno band Scooter.
In the video game Metal Gear Solid 2, the phrase is said by a malfunctioning A.I. saying random things.
"Mind the Gap" is the name of a Hungarian metal band that has broken up.
"Mind the Gap" was the name of a Vancouver alternative band that has broken up.
In the 2006 film Notes on a Scandal (film), the character Sheba, played by Cate Blanchett, says that her father used to tell her that "mind the gap" refers to "the distance between life as you dream it and life as it is."
"Mind the Gap" is mentioned in "New Frontier", a song by Counting Crows on This Desert Life LP ("little children mind the gap")
"Mind the Gap" is the title of the song performed by UK indie rock band Noisettes.
"Mind the Gap" is the title of a film: A Svensk release of a Sweetwater Filmright II production, in association with Svensk, TV4, Cinema Art Prods., Succefilm, with participation of Break Even.
Hans Rosling's project to organize global statistic data into easily accessible diagrams is called the Gapminder Foundation in reference to the phrase "Mind the Gap".
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Old June 3rd, 2007, 11:41 AM   #1539
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Question do you know anything outside of London and Great Britain when it comes to subways?
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Old June 3rd, 2007, 04:02 PM   #1540
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Thanks for that.

Tubeman, I asked this before but I think you missed it.. Would it ever be feasible to extend the platforms on the Northern line, maybe they could split the line first and then extend the platforms on the busier branch (Bank branch?) 6 cars seens insufficient...
Possible, but improbable. Its been done before (the original City & South London platforms were all extended in the 1920's when the Northern Line was created... look for the change in platform tunnel diameter at stations like Borough, these are the extensions). Some of the platforms were built long enough for 9 short cars (maybe 8 cars of 1996 stock), Highgate and all of the platforms built during the 1920's expansion are long enough. 9 car trains used to run for a short while but the difficulties posed by having 2 cars stopping in tunnels at many central London stations (i.e. passengers had to know which cars' doors wouldn't open) rendered it pretty pointless.

Its probably easier just to resignal to allow higher frequencies (and more customer-focused)... this is in the pipeline anyway (ATO in 2011)

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Also, will the new 09TS for the Vic have longer cars like the 95/96TS or shorter ones like the 92TS?
Good question... I don't really know to be honest. I suspect long like the 73, D78, 95 and 96 stocks... The Victoria line has no tunnel geometry constraints demanding shorter cars (unlike the Central Line), but the fact that if cars were longer trains would be 7 cars might be an issue, as operationally its easier having an even number of cars in a train (i.e. 4x 2-car units). The only line left with an uneven number of cars is my beloved Bakerloo with 7 (4 car+3 car)... 7 cars of 38 or 59 stocks used to be standard on the Piccadilly, Northern and Bakerloo Lines (i.e. the Yerkes Tubes). Perhaps the Victoria Line could have 6 extra-long cars?

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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Finally! Why in the refurbished stations has the "Mind the gap, please" been introduced? I noticed it at Bethnal Green and at Regent's Park when I went through it! Both stations aren't even on a curve! And why the hell do tourists find "Mind the Gap" so funny?
I suspect DDA compliance (Disability Discrimination Act)... Even though there isn't a gap due to a curve, there is a step up to the train to which the visually impaired should be notified.

As to the phrase being funny, I agree with Justme that its probably the ultra-posh 'Mind the Gap!' barked by the automated announcements at places like Embankment Northern Line northbound that tickles them!
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