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Old June 9th, 2007, 05:14 AM   #1581
Tubeman
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why don't they make the air vent not have to pass through the driver's cab? So it could be a bit passing through the ceiling, and won't go through the cab.

I thought the air vent made the journey more... windy! Which is good when it's hot.
There are vents above the windows on stocks like the 67,72 and 73 but they really do seem to supply minimal ventilation... There are also fans in the ceilings but again I hardly remember feeling so much as a whisper from them. The thought of having very powerful fans in the ceilings blasting air downwards is quite an attractive one to me... perhaps they can't be too strong or people would complain about their newspapers getting blown about?

I quote like the scheme suggested this week of a sort of 'stored' air conditioning system: In short, whilst above ground trains would have refrigeration units going into overdrive, chilling water or oil stored in cylinders under the seats and expelling the hot air into the overground world. As soon as the trains entered the tunnel the units would shut off and air from the cars would be circulated across the frozen cylinders, which would slowly defrost whilst chilling the air in the cars.

Nice idea in principle, but they said it would only last for about 20 minutes and it would obviously be f-all use on the two hottest lines, Victoria and Bakerloo, as the former is all underground and most of the latter's journies are underground (Queens Park to Elephant & Castle). The Jubilee, Piccadilly and Central Lines could benefit the most, however the Northern Line with 17 miles of tunnel from Finchley to Morden wouldn't benefit too much, as trains are only above ground at Morden for about 5 minutes, so essentially it will be a 35 mile / 50km tunnel round trip without the refrigeration recharging.

It would assumedly also add a lot of weight to each carriage, which isn't ideal.
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Old June 9th, 2007, 01:42 PM   #1582
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I was quite excited about the storage cooler idea, sounded very smart, but obviously some problems as you pointed out.

Chancery Lane put up some blue cages in the escalator areas and signs announcing a new cooling trial at the begining of the week. I was quite excited. Then they put some fans in the cages. Not very impressive. There is allready a lot of airmovement in that area.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 02:46 AM   #1583
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Why do station staff feel the need to make SO many announcements? As if "please remember to keep your personal belongings with you" "there is good service on all london underground lines" isn't enough, the staff feel the need to constantly say "mind the doors" "stand behind the yellow line" "the next train is coming in 1 minute" "there are delays on the centreal line" are they that bored!?! We're not children for god sakes!

Also I think you missed it before but: How often does track need replacing?
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Old June 10th, 2007, 03:05 AM   #1584
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why do station staff feel the need to make SO many announcements? As if "please remember to keep your personal belongings with you" "there is good service on all london underground lines" isn't enough, the staff feel the need to constantly say "mind the doors" "stand behind the yellow line" "the next train is coming in 1 minute" "there are delays on the centreal line" are they that bored!?! We're not children for god sakes!

Also I think you missed it before but: How often does track need replacing?

Its about a balance really... One of the main complaints about us is lack of information, but this is more PAs from the drivers when there are delays rather than the constant barrage of information. There's probably also an element of avoiding litigation with the 'Mind the gaps' and 'Mind the doors', i.e. if someone gets injured we have the defence of having made the announcements. A lot of the announcements are pre-recorded or come directly from the NOC (Network Operations Centre) network-wide, so whilst it might sound like the station staff are bored and going into overdrive, its not actually them making many of the announcements.

Track gets replaced wholesale every 20-30 years, but in this period elements are replaced as necessary (e.g. sections of rail, sleepers, porcelain pots etc).
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Old June 10th, 2007, 04:45 PM   #1585
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I know you're down on the bakerloo now, but I've been enjoying this weekends engineering work.

The Hamersmith and city line has been a pleasure to use, I have the misfortune of living at Bow Rd and consider the H&C to generaly not exist. If I'm going anywhere on the top of the circle I will allways take the central and change.

This weekend however, with no circle or district to mess up the junctions, and extra trains laid on, it has been a joy. Train every few minutes, rolling straight through aldgate rather than the usual 5 minute wait, not stopping at whitechappel to let every other train go first. It's wonderfull!

I really think the central's overcrowing could be sorted more easily and more cheaply by improving the H&C - can we start a petition to close whitechappel - Earls court?! Perhaps they could have a shuttle service!
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Old June 10th, 2007, 07:00 PM   #1586
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Tubeman, I haven't lived in London for 2 1/2 years. I'm aware that day and week travel cards, on Oyster, don't include NR services. Are the old travel cards still sold that include use of Network Rail?

Considering, when I'm back London next, I'll mainly be South it's important that NR service is included on my card.

Cheers,
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Old June 10th, 2007, 07:30 PM   #1587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truepioneer View Post
Tubeman, I haven't lived in London for 2 1/2 years. I'm aware that day and week travel cards, on Oyster, don't include NR services. Are the old travel cards still sold that include use of Network Rail?

Considering, when I'm back London next, I'll mainly be South it's important that NR service is included on my card.

Cheers,
Week/Month/Annual travelcards on Oyster DO include NR services within your zones. There's no such thing as a day travelcard on Oyster - the amount you spend on it per day if just capped at the Day Travelcard price (but you still can't use it on NR).
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Old June 10th, 2007, 08:35 PM   #1588
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Nah, safety is the prime concern... draughts are good (its the only form of aeration in a lot of Tube tunnels), which is why the PEDs do not form a seal at the top.
That's not right. The JLE was designed for ATO, which allows trains to be driven much more aggressively than a manual driver would, which makes better use of line capacity. One aggressive thing ATO computers can be programmed to do is drive into stations at very high speed and stop at the last minute, and the platform screen is there to protect passengers from the blast of air this creates in underground stations (which is also why the above ground stations don't have doors).

The gap at the top is indeed there to allow ventilation of the system.
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Old June 10th, 2007, 08:41 PM   #1589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
That's not right. The JLE was designed for ATO, which allows trains to be driven much more aggressively than a manual driver would, which makes better use of line capacity. One aggressive thing ATO computers can be programmed to do is drive into stations at very high speed and stop at the last minute, and the platform screen is there to protect passengers from the blast of air this creates in underground stations (which is also why the above ground stations don't have doors).

The gap at the top is indeed there to allow ventilation of the system.
Why don't they have them on the Central and Victoria lines then?

On them i've never found the rush of air to be any stronger than on other lines...

Tubeman, thanks as well. Would it ever be feasible to try and create flying junctions on the SSLs? Obviously it could only be done where possible, but maybe it would improve the service?
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Old June 10th, 2007, 10:10 PM   #1590
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why don't they have them on the Central and Victoria lines then?
They're not a requirement of ATO, they just allow you to program more aggressive braking curves into the system. Retro-fitting them to the Central and Victoria would be too expensive for the benefits gained, since platforms need to completely rebuilt to take the extra weight/forces.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 12:53 AM   #1591
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My understanding was that the private contacts issued for the JLX specified the maximum draft allowed, hence the PEDs.

The safty is another great side effect. I also like that they deter people from holding the doors. Its harder for one thing, but the PEDs are pretty brutish compaired with the train doors and people seem less comfortable throwing themselves into them.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 02:39 AM   #1592
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Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
I know you're down on the bakerloo now, but I've been enjoying this weekends engineering work.

The Hamersmith and city line has been a pleasure to use, I have the misfortune of living at Bow Rd and consider the H&C to generaly not exist. If I'm going anywhere on the top of the circle I will allways take the central and change.

This weekend however, with no circle or district to mess up the junctions, and extra trains laid on, it has been a joy. Train every few minutes, rolling straight through aldgate rather than the usual 5 minute wait, not stopping at whitechappel to let every other train go first. It's wonderfull!

I really think the central's overcrowing could be sorted more easily and more cheaply by improving the H&C - can we start a petition to close whitechappel - Earls court?! Perhaps they could have a shuttle service!
My personal dream to 'sort out' SSR would be to scrap the Circle and build a deep-level 'express' Circle line as follows:

Kings Cross St Pancras
Angel
Old Street
Liverpool Street
Fenchurch Street / Tower Hill
London Bridge
Waterloo
Victoria
South Kensington
High Street Kensington
Notting Hill Gate
Paddington
Baker Street
Euston
Kings Cross St Pancras

...With a depot built on the King's Cross railway lands which would then be rafted over for the redevelopment. This route mirrors sections of the circle whilst better serving termini (e.g. Waterloo, London Bridge, Euston) and missing out a few stops, so it becomes a much more attractive route (e.g. Victoria to The City in just 3 stops).

I'd then quadruple Baker Street to Farringdon to allow separation of a Metropolitan service into Moorgate from the H&C (Farringdon-Moorgate is set to be abandoned by Thameslink / First Crapital)... Moorgate would have 4 terminal platforms available for this service.

I'd also close Aldgate and quadruple Aldgate East to Whitechapel to allow separation of the H&C service from the District, eliminating flat junction working at Aldgate East / Aldgate / Minories. All H&C services would terminate at Whitechapel, but the District service would be greatly enhanced due to the train paths freed up by removing the Circle.

I'd then run the H&C with 2 western branches (Hammersmith & Wimbledon) with trains every 4 minutes (i.e. every 2 minutes between Edgware Road and Whitechapel). The Wimbledon Branch would become solely operated by the H&C Line, a new flyunder would be built east of Earl's Court to allow eastbound trains ex-platform 2 to dive under the District line ex-platform 1 without conflict: this would allow the two lines to be completely separate (i.e. platforms 2 and 4 Earl's Court = H&C, 1 and 3 = District). The train every 4 minutes between Wimbledon and Whitechapel could have an additional train every 4 minutes between Wimbledon and High Street Kensington in the peak, providing a far better service to that very heavily used branch than currently provided.

The District would remain from Upminster to Richmond / Ealing, but I'd probably run Upminster - Richmonds every 5 minutes, Barking - Ealings every 5 minutes and Olympia - Plaistows every 10 minutes, giving a train every 2 minutes along the core Earl's Court to Plaistow section. With the removal of the Circle service flat junctions at Gloucester Road and High Street Ken can be eliminated, the only remaining one would be at Praed Street (Edgware Road) which could be eliminated with a flying junction (although doing this with a subsurface tunnel would be tricky!).

That's what I'd do anyway
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Old June 11th, 2007, 02:50 AM   #1593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
That's not right. The JLE was designed for ATO, which allows trains to be driven much more aggressively than a manual driver would, which makes better use of line capacity. One aggressive thing ATO computers can be programmed to do is drive into stations at very high speed and stop at the last minute, and the platform screen is there to protect passengers from the blast of air this creates in underground stations (which is also why the above ground stations don't have doors).

The gap at the top is indeed there to allow ventilation of the system.
Why did you say "That's not right" to only then agree with my statement as your last sentence?

As has been pointed out, the Central and Victoria Lines are also auto and both hit platforms very fast... Your notion that the screens are there purely with ATO in mind seems very odd. Of course they're there for safety: customers cannot jump / be pushed / fall under trains or give the impression the are about to. ATO trains hit platforms generally faster, but the same effect can be repeated manually with an experienced driver with a steely nerve. Whether a train hits the platform at 30mph or 40mph you're still going to get a significant blast of air but there's not exactly much in it, its not as if ATO trains enter platforms at 100mph or anything.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 02:53 AM   #1594
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Tubeman, thanks as well. Would it ever be feasible to try and create flying junctions on the SSLs? Obviously it could only be done where possible, but maybe it would improve the service?

I already touched on that with post before last... Its not impossible, but it would be an engineering nightmare in some locations building new inclines / tunnels within the constraint of exisitng subsurface tunnels... In many cases I doubt it would be possible without demolition at street level.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #1595
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They're not a requirement of ATO, they just allow you to program more aggressive braking curves into the system. Retro-fitting them to the Central and Victoria would be too expensive for the benefits gained, since platforms need to completely rebuilt to take the extra weight/forces.
But the point is people aren't being knocked off their feet by a Central or Victoria Line train entering a platform at 40mph any more than they are by other lines trains at 30mph. I really can't see the draught issue being very high up on the list of reasons compared to the great benefit of having a physical barrier between the customers and track / trains to prevent people under trains, near-misses etc. In fact, I'd say prevention of litter from blowing onto the track / down tunnels is more of a consideration.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 09:05 AM   #1596
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Originally Posted by Truepioneer View Post
Tubeman, I haven't lived in London for 2 1/2 years. I'm aware that day and week travel cards, on Oyster, don't include NR services. Are the old travel cards still sold that include use of Network Rail?

Considering, when I'm back London next, I'll mainly be South it's important that NR service is included on my card.

Cheers,
You can still buy normal paper tickets which from memory have the full day/week/month travel cards for all trains including network rail in the 6 zones.

The catch is that paper tickets cost more than Oyster cards - a lot more.

As for Oyster cards being used on mainline stations. When I was last in London with my Oyster card there were some stations that allowed it's use, or others which allowed it for daily, weekly tickets etc but not for "pay as you go".

In fact, from memory (someone correct me if I am wrong here), the Oyster weekly pass should also work with all NR stations in zones 1-6. The catch was that you couldn't use a "pay as you go" method. However, all stations have now agreed to use the Oyster method now (for "pay as you go"), and over the next few years various lines will start providing this service.

I got my Oyster at Heathrow, and have just kept it for the next time I travel there. Hopefully by then I can top it up online from outside of the UK.

To be honest, it's a great system.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 10:25 AM   #1597
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ANY travelcard - on Oyster or as a paper ticket - allows you to travel on all tube and NR services, except for the Heathrow Express and the Heathrow Connect between Heathrow and Hayes & Harlington.
It's only pay as you go Oyster that is not accepted on most National Rail routes, for now.

Edit: bit late there, didn't see there was a new page!

Tubeman: I think your plan would be overserving the section between Paddington and King's Cross - with trains every two minutes on your new H&C (well, H/W&C really ) plus all the train on the new deep level circle line. Your plan without the deep-level circle line already looks great, and would probably create enough capacity by splitting the services and building fly-overs / dive-unders.
If there was enough money to be spent on a new deep-level line, I would try and serve area not yet served instead.

Last edited by sweek; June 11th, 2007 at 12:34 PM.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 01:25 PM   #1598
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Your notion that the screens are there purely with ATO in mind seems very odd.
It's not "my notion". Read any published work on the JLE and it'll agree with me - the primary reason for the doors is to manage air blasts from trains. Of course they prevent suicides, but that alone was not seen as reason enough to add them, which is why the 3 above ground stations don't have them.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 02:02 PM   #1599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
My personal dream to 'sort out' SSR would be to scrap the Circle and build a deep-level 'express' Circle line as follows:

Kings Cross St Pancras
Angel
Old Street
Liverpool Street
Fenchurch Street / Tower Hill
London Bridge
Waterloo
Victoria
South Kensington
High Street Kensington
Notting Hill Gate
Paddington
Baker Street
Euston
Kings Cross St Pancras

...With a depot built on the King's Cross railway lands which would then be rafted over for the redevelopment. This route mirrors sections of the circle whilst better serving termini (e.g. Waterloo, London Bridge, Euston) and missing out a few stops, so it becomes a much more attractive route (e.g. Victoria to The City in just 3 stops).

I'd then quadruple Baker Street to Farringdon to allow separation of a Metropolitan service into Moorgate from the H&C (Farringdon-Moorgate is set to be abandoned by Thameslink / First Crapital)... Moorgate would have 4 terminal platforms available for this service.

I'd also close Aldgate and quadruple Aldgate East to Whitechapel to allow separation of the H&C service from the District, eliminating flat junction working at Aldgate East / Aldgate / Minories. All H&C services would terminate at Whitechapel, but the District service would be greatly enhanced due to the train paths freed up by removing the Circle.

I'd then run the H&C with 2 western branches (Hammersmith & Wimbledon) with trains every 4 minutes (i.e. every 2 minutes between Edgware Road and Whitechapel). The Wimbledon Branch would become solely operated by the H&C Line, a new flyunder would be built east of Earl's Court to allow eastbound trains ex-platform 2 to dive under the District line ex-platform 1 without conflict: this would allow the two lines to be completely separate (i.e. platforms 2 and 4 Earl's Court = H&C, 1 and 3 = District). The train every 4 minutes between Wimbledon and Whitechapel could have an additional train every 4 minutes between Wimbledon and High Street Kensington in the peak, providing a far better service to that very heavily used branch than currently provided.

The District would remain from Upminster to Richmond / Ealing, but I'd probably run Upminster - Richmonds every 5 minutes, Barking - Ealings every 5 minutes and Olympia - Plaistows every 10 minutes, giving a train every 2 minutes along the core Earl's Court to Plaistow section. With the removal of the Circle service flat junctions at Gloucester Road and High Street Ken can be eliminated, the only remaining one would be at Praed Street (Edgware Road) which could be eliminated with a flying junction (although doing this with a subsurface tunnel would be tricky!).

That's what I'd do anyway
Why did they put you on to the Bakerloo line? You should be heading up a team to get cracking on these changes!
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Old June 11th, 2007, 05:42 PM   #1600
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I just wanted to know what it looked like, so I made this.

I put way too much work into this, but oh well.

This is:
- Everything Tubeman suggested in that last post.
- East London line phase 1 and 2
- Northern Line split
- Shoreditch station on the Central Line
- Bakerloo line extended both ways
- Extra interchange between East London Line and Bakerloo Line at Brockley.

I'm obviously still missing Crossrail, the Heathrow extension and a bunch of other projects, and I used a few of the existing National Rail line that might still be used for other services to draw the extensions.

Oh, and I'm not exactly Harry Beck. It doesn't look very pretty, I know. But I've done my best.

Last edited by sweek; June 11th, 2007 at 05:59 PM.
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