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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:47 PM   #1601
lasdun
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I think that is a pretty spectacular plan for the SSL, Hamersmith taking over Wimbelware didn't occure to me, very smart. The junctions are hard, and the Bakerstreet - Farringdon double tracking would be a challenge. I've allways thought the best thing to do with the met is either terminate at Baker st (uproar from the metworlders) or sink it into a new tube, the route I fancied was Baker Street, Tottenham court rd, Aldwych, ludgate circus, fenchurch street and then taking over the C2C lines, bargin cross rail line 4!

Around Aldgate is all rubish 80s ground scrapers or empty land, I'm sure that some fancy developer would love to build something down there. Earls court is more tricky, listed buildings....

I have this idea in my head of an SSR flyover that emerges from the ground and disappears again in a glass tube, crosses Aldgate and dissapears again like some sort of serpant...

If I had the money for a 20 mile deep express tube, I wouldn't choose a circle line,
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Old June 12th, 2007, 10:16 AM   #1602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I just wanted to know what it looked like, so I made this.
I put way too much work into this, but oh well.

This is:
- Everything Tubeman suggested in that last post.
- East London line phase 1 and 2
- Northern Line split
- Shoreditch station on the Central Line
- Bakerloo line extended both ways
- Extra interchange between East London Line and Bakerloo Line at Brockley.

I'm obviously still missing Crossrail, the Heathrow extension and a bunch of other projects, and I used a few of the existing National Rail line that might still be used for other services to draw the extensions.

Oh, and I'm not exactly Harry Beck. It doesn't look very pretty, I know. But I've done my best.


That's excellent work, well done!

On another note, I'm off to Barbados in 90 minutes so won't be here to answer queries until June 24th... Adios!
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Old June 12th, 2007, 03:36 PM   #1603
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Tubeman I heard that the S Stock will be 7 cars long, how will this work in the stations on the Western end of the circle? Also, will the S Stock have 7 car Met trains? If so won't this mean a reduced capacity? If they will be 8 car for the Met, then surely that means they could create extra seating for the Met trains specifically? How will the trains be connected? Will it be like HK where it's one long train or like the DLR where lots of 2 car trains together... Sorry for the questions! I'm interested!

Oops... too late...
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Old June 12th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #1604
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if you'll accept an answer from a layman.

The S stock come in two versons, a 6 car for use on the Circle, H&C and district line and a 7 car for the Met.

The cars are of the longer D stock length so 6 cars of S = 7 of A etc.

The met line trains will be around the same length as they are now. The circle line, H&C and Wimbeldon branch trains will be longer and platforms will be lengthened on the western side of the circle to accomidate this.

The trains are not articlated like the DLR (two cars share one bogie) but are fully linked through.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 10:54 PM   #1605
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Thanks, how will the extend the platforms at Notting Hill Gate or Baker Street without ruining the appearance of the original station? And How will they do it at Edgware Road where there are junctions either side of the platform?

Also, will the cars be split into different sections or will it be just one long car with no gaps? And will the Met trains and the rest of the S Stock be interchangeable like say... the Bakerloo and Victoria line stock? - Just different legnths?
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Old June 13th, 2007, 03:54 AM   #1606
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That's a great looking line, Sweek!
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Old June 13th, 2007, 08:24 PM   #1607
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The S stock will be 7 or 8 short cars, so 7*S = 7*C = 6*D and 8*S=8*A. Otherwise ladsun is spot on.

Carriages will be joined together by a near full-width corridor, and each train will be a single unit. All trains are being built to exactly the same design.

Only a few of the sixteen 6 car stations will be lengthened, the rest will be SDO, although the details of this are still being worked out.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 10:32 PM   #1608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
The S stock will be 7 or 8 short cars, so 7*S = 7*C = 6*D and 8*S=8*A. Otherwise ladsun is spot on.

Carriages will be joined together by a near full-width corridor, and each train will be a single unit. All trains are being built to exactly the same design.

Only a few of the sixteen 6 car stations will be lengthened, the rest will be SDO, although the details of this are still being worked out.
Who an earth was the moron who decided to build them all to the same design? Does anyone fancy commuting from Aldgate to Amersham on C Stock? Hell, we mays well use the Victoria line stock for GNER services
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Old June 14th, 2007, 12:10 AM   #1609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Who an earth was the moron who decided to build them all to the same design? Does anyone fancy commuting from Aldgate to Amersham on C Stock? Hell, we mays well use the Victoria line stock for GNER services
The interiors still have enough seats, I think. The seats on the A stock now are basically too small. Using tip-up seats is a good idea for these services, to make them more flexible depending on what services they're running.
Using the same design saves a lot of cost, both building and when it comes to repairs and maintenance.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 01:05 AM   #1610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
The interiors still have enough seats, I think. The seats on the A stock now are basically too small. Using tip-up seats is a good idea for these services, to make them more flexible depending on what services they're running.
Using the same design saves a lot of cost, both building and when it comes to repairs and maintenance.
So what about cost! We already pay the highest metro fares in the world, would a different seating layout really cost that much!?!? They waste money on stuff like this yet what most commuters want is a comfortable and fast journey. The train can be the same but can have a different seating layout!! It makes me angry that they're being so simplistic, the Tube is a diverse network, they can't just have a "one for all" policy!

Also, what are you on about the A Stock having small seats? It has the most seating of them all!
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Old June 14th, 2007, 11:27 AM   #1611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Also, what are you on about the A Stock having small seats? It has the most seating of them all!
A Stock has the highest amount of seats, but the seats are laid out as 2 + 3 across the train; while in reality, they are way too crammed for that and are very often used as 1 + 2 instead, simply because people find it uncomfortable to sit almost on each other. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but newer stock have all gotten wider seats to help with this; and now these trains will, too.

Furthermore, because of the higher frequency that is going to be provided - while the total number of seats per train might be going down, the amount of seats of all the trains together is actually going to be the same.

Here's a link with pictures of what these trains will look like, by the way, for people wondering what we're talking about.
http://www.amersham.org.uk/forum/ipb...?showtopic=372
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Old June 14th, 2007, 11:52 AM   #1612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
A Stock has the highest amount of seats, but the seats are laid out as 2 + 3 across the train; while in reality, they are way too crammed for that and are very often used as 1 + 2 instead, simply because people find it uncomfortable to sit almost on each other. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but newer stock have all gotten wider seats to help with this; and now these trains will, too.

Furthermore, because of the higher frequency that is going to be provided - while the total number of seats per train might be going down, the amount of seats of all the trains together is actually going to be the same.

Here's a link with pictures of what these trains will look like, by the way, for people wondering what we're talking about.
http://www.amersham.org.uk/forum/ipb...?showtopic=372
As far as I know, ATO, which is what provides higher frequency will be years behind when the first Met train is delivered. And do you seriously believe ATO will work straight away, or not be delayed? Look at the Central line! Or the Jubilee line for that matter, it was supposed to have ATO from day one of the extension yet we're getting it nine years later.

The seating appears to have even fewer seats than the District line, as well, it just gets better and better, doesn't it?

Last edited by iampuking; June 14th, 2007 at 12:03 PM.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 12:00 PM   #1613
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There are many issues I have with this new stock, seating being one of them.
-Why do LU think anyone will want to stand in the area between the carriages? As has already been said on the Amersham forum, people like to stand near the doors so they have the least resistence when getting off
-What if a bomb went off? I know it sounds paranoid but the shrapnel would be able to travel through the entire train, potentially killing more people?
-If the train were to suddenly deccelerate in an emergency wouldn't all the passengers go flying with nowhere to stop?
-What i'm confused about is why they can't provide more seating on the Met. If the trains are fully walk-through which I think they are, then surely they won't be able to "mix and match" 8 car met trains with 7 car Circle line trains? Doesn't this mean they could provide a dedicated Met S Stock with better optimized seating?

I'm sorry, i'm not having a go at you or anything, the only issue I have is with this bloody train! The new Vic stock looks great though.

Last edited by iampuking; June 14th, 2007 at 12:06 PM.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 01:15 PM   #1614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
As far as I know, ATO, which is what provides higher frequency will be years behind when the first Met train is delivered. And do you seriously believe ATO will work straight away, or not be delayed? Look at the Central line! Or the Jubilee line for that matter, it was supposed to have ATO from day one of the extension yet we're getting it nine years later.
The frequency increase isn't directly related to ATO. The Met has some capacity left with 6 Uxbridge + 6 Watford + 4 Amersham trains = 16 trains per hour now in the central section, whereas the District, with an even more complicated service pattern, has 18 trains in the central section plus 7 Circle line trains it shares tracks with; so clearly it's possible to run more trains.
What I heard is that the Uxbridge Branch would be getting 10 instead of 6 trains per hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
There are many issues I have with this new stock, seating being one of them.
-Why do LU think anyone will want to stand in the area between the carriages? As has already been said on the Amersham forum, people like to stand near the doors so they have the least resistence when getting off
I think the layout is a lot more spacious; I don't think you will really have to lean over people from looking at those pictures.
Quote:
-What if a bomb went off? I know it sounds paranoid but the shrapnel would be able to travel through the entire train, potentially killing more people?
What if a bomb went off on a public square? Should we start building random walls on Trafalgar just so the blast of a potential bomb couldn't reach as far? I know it sounds ridiculous the way I'm saying it, but I really don't think that's something we should be worrying about.
This also makes it a lot easier to evacuate a train and to get away from any problems. I'm quite sure a lot of people have felt unsafe being with only one dodgy looking person in the same car late at night. I think the 'one long carriage' will feel a lot safer and be more transparent.

Quote:
-If the train were to suddenly deccelerate in an emergency wouldn't all the passengers go flying with nowhere to stop?
There are still plenty of things to hold on to, and as you can see from a pic like this one http://www.metroland.nildram.co.uk/s...interior-2.jpg , the transversal seats move from side to side all the time, so it's no long endless path through the middle with nothing to 'stop you' from falling.

Quote:
-What i'm confused about is why they can't provide more seating on the Met. If the trains are fully walk-through which I think they are, then surely they won't be able to "mix and match" 8 car met trains with 7 car Circle line trains? Doesn't this mean they could provide a dedicated Met S Stock with better optimized seating?
I don't think you can really speak of 'cars' anymore here. Mixing and matching is almost certainly not (easily) possible.

Furthermore, the Metropolitan is going to be providing more of an 'urban' and 'inner city' service if it gets extended to Barking, which is quite likely to happen. If it does, it will need the extra space.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 03:39 PM   #1615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
The frequency increase isn't directly related to ATO. The Met has some capacity left with 6 Uxbridge + 6 Watford + 4 Amersham trains = 16 trains per hour now in the central section, whereas the District, with an even more complicated service pattern, has 18 trains in the central section plus 7 Circle line trains it shares tracks with; so clearly it's possible to run more trains.
What I heard is that the Uxbridge Branch would be getting 10 instead of 6 trains per hour.
What do you mean by "central section" Aldgate to Baker Street or Baker Street to Wembley?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I think the layout is a lot more spacious; I don't think you will really have to lean over people from looking at those pictures.
The 92TS look "spacious" inside, yet they're anything but in rush hour. Also, I beg to differ about them looking spacious, the transverse seats poke out, seating making it look awkward, and the inward-tapering body makes it look cramped. They look less spacious then the bloody D Stock! It'd be amusing seeing commuters trying to work their way through the train whilst guessing which side the transverse seating juts out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
What if a bomb went off on a public square? Should we start building random walls on Trafalgar just so the blast of a potential bomb couldn't reach as far? I know it sounds ridiculous the way I'm saying it, but I really don't think that's something we should be worrying about.
I'm not particularly worried about terrorists, but these "What ifs" are things that need to be asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
This also makes it a lot easier to evacuate a train and to get away from any problems. I'm quite sure a lot of people have felt unsafe being with only one dodgy looking person in the same car late at night. I think the 'one long carriage' will feel a lot safer and be more transparent.
I agree regarding evacuation. Though I don't agree with your last point, if there are a gang of yobs late at night, there is nothing to seperate you from them if you were at the front or back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
There are still plenty of things to hold on to, and as you can see from a pic like this one http://www.metroland.nildram.co.uk/s...interior-2.jpg , the transversal seats move from side to side all the time, so it's no long endless path through the middle with nothing to 'stop you' from falling.
You're probably right there, though I don't see a short section of transverse seating as effective as a wall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I don't think you can really speak of 'cars' anymore here. Mixing and matching is almost certainly not (easily) possible.
You clearly haven't read my post if you think I meant that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
Furthermore, the Metropolitan is going to be providing more of an 'urban' and 'inner city' service if it gets extended to Barking, which is quite likely to happen. If it does, it will need the extra space.
Sensible idea... Personally, I think the Met's Amersham, Watford and Chesham branches should be handed over to Chiltern. The new trains are too slow (62mph maximum, which it'll probably never reach in service, the Met USED to go at 70mph) meaning Met trains frequently slow down Chiltern services, the new trains are narrower, which probably means there will be a larger gap between the train and the platform... I could go on...
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Old June 14th, 2007, 08:30 PM   #1616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
What do you mean by "central section" Aldgate to Baker Street or Baker Street to Wembley?
Baker Street to Wembley that was.

Quote:
The 92TS look "spacious" inside, yet they're anything but in rush hour. Also, I beg to differ about them looking spacious, the transverse seats poke out, seating making it look awkward, and the inward-tapering body makes it look cramped. They look less spacious then the bloody D Stock! It'd be amusing seeing commuters trying to work their way through the train whilst guessing which side the transverse seating juts out...
Ehm, they can just look in front of them. I'm sure pretty similar designs are in use in other places. I can't see this being much of a problem.

Quote:
I agree regarding evacuation. Though I don't agree with your last point, if there are a gang of yobs late at night, there is nothing to seperate you from them if you were at the front or back.
So what would you do? Check every car and make sure you go and sit in one with people that 'look safe'? That's not possible in reality.

It's a good thing that people can easily move throughout the train, spreading the load over the whole place.

Quote:
You're probably right there, though I don't see a short section of transverse seating as effective as a wall.
Well, it won't be. But I think that's just a minor problem, with quite a few big advantages attached to not having walls.

Quote:
Sensible idea... Personally, I think the Met's Amersham, Watford and Chesham branches should be handed over to Chiltern. The new trains are too slow (62mph maximum, which it'll probably never reach in service, the Met USED to go at 70mph) meaning Met trains frequently slow down Chiltern services, the new trains are narrower, which probably means there will be a larger gap between the train and the platform... I could go on...
The trains should be able to actually reach that 62 mph max in some of the longer sections. The reason the A stock has been restricted to 50 mph is due to the stock not being able to cope with those speeds anymore.

I don't think the Chiltern trains really get in the way of the Mets, since 70 mph isn't reached very often, and if it is it'll be on the outskirts of the line where there isn't a very high frequency.
If it would be just Chiltern, they couldn't provide peak through-services past Baker Street anymore either.
I think Chiltern has been providing a pretty good service, but can't see them taking over the whole line any time soon. I actually don't know if the trains would fit in the tunnels south of Finchley Road either (?)
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Old June 14th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #1617
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Quote:
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Ehm, they can just look in front of them. I'm sure pretty similar designs are in use in other places. I can't see this being much of a problem.
You can look in front of you, but when it's crowded having to make your way around seats that are poking out is more difficult than one might imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
So what would you do? Check every car and make sure you go and sit in one with people that 'look safe'? That's not possible in reality.
Well duh. But it's something that needs to be asked, not necessarily amended, but asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
It's a good thing that people can easily move throughout the train, spreading the load over the whole place.
You're definately right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
The trains should be able to actually reach that 62 mph max in some of the longer sections. The reason the A stock has been restricted to 50 mph is due to the stock not being able to cope with those speeds anymore.
I don't believe that they'll regularly reach 62mph max. I don't know of a single train on the tube right now that reaches max speed in commercial service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I don't think the Chiltern trains really get in the way of the Mets, since 70 mph isn't reached very often, and if it is it'll be on the outskirts of the line where there isn't a very high frequency.
If it would be just Chiltern, they couldn't provide peak through-services past Baker Street anymore either.
I think Chiltern has been providing a pretty good service, but can't see them taking over the whole line any time soon. I actually don't know if the trains would fit in the tunnels south of Finchley Road either (?)
They probably could, as the Met has the largest loading gauge in Britain, so i'd assume that if they can then other trains can as well. But my suggestion was that the trains could go down to Marylebone instead, probably hasn't got enough capacity but one can only dream... It'd also be a waste of four tracking round that area anyway!
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Old June 16th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #1618
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Hi Tubey, I will be coming to London next month and have a question for you re the Tube.

What is the easiest way to get from Victoria to Dagenham East?
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Old June 16th, 2007, 10:14 PM   #1619
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^ Take District Line train.
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Old June 16th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #1620
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^ Take District Line train.
I wouldn't if I was him... Much quicker to take the Victoria line to Oxford Circus and then the Central to Mile End, where there is cross-platform interchange with the District line. The Central line has larger gaps between stops, takes a more direct route and is much faster in general. The District line sluggishly crawls down the south section with constant stops between the stations and the stations are too close together... Also, let's not forget the huge amount of tourists between Westminster and Tower Hill, tourists = annoying.
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