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Old June 17th, 2007, 11:48 PM   #1621
sweek
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Yes, but he asked for the easiest way.

The Tfl website gives me 48-50 minutes for this trip along the District line, and 55 minutes for the the Vic - Centr - Distr route. I really wouldn't bother with the two extra changes here.
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Old June 18th, 2007, 02:25 AM   #1622
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I second the district, it's annoyingly slow but much cooler and more pleasent than the vic central combo if you are not in a rush. ( I have the same debate with my work journey)
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Old June 18th, 2007, 02:45 AM   #1623
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Yes, but he asked for the easiest way.

The Tfl website gives me 48-50 minutes for this trip along the District line, and 55 minutes for the the Vic - Centr - Distr route. I really wouldn't bother with the two extra changes here.
The Oxford Circus interchange is a bit of a hassle, but the Mile End one is so simple I wouldn't really classify it as an interchange as such. Amd dpes the TfL route planner take into account the speed of the train etc.?
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Old June 18th, 2007, 10:35 AM   #1624
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The Oxford Circus interchange is a bit of a hassle, but the Mile End one is so simple I wouldn't really classify it as an interchange as such. Amd dpes the TfL route planner take into account the speed of the train etc.?
Yeah, of course it does. These trains do run according to timetables, even though we as a public might not see them.
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Old June 18th, 2007, 10:42 PM   #1625
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Yeah, of course it does. These trains do run according to timetables, even though we as a public might not see them.
...or have any other evidence that they exist...
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Old June 18th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #1626
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The S stock will be 7 or 8 short cars, so 7*S = 7*C = 6*D and 8*S=8*A. Otherwise ladsun is spot on.

Carriages will be joined together by a near full-width corridor, and each train will be a single unit. All trains are being built to exactly the same design.

Only a few of the sixteen 6 car stations will be lengthened, the rest will be SDO, although the details of this are still being worked out.
Hi all... Glad to see this thread is alive and well in my absence!

Sat in an internet cafe on the outskirts of Holetown on Barbados' Caribbean coast, so can't sit here all day

Are you 'industry' U Thant, out of interest, or an enthusiast?

The last I heard is that all S Stocks will run in 7 car formations which represents a capacity increase on the H&C / Circle sections, no change on the D Stock District sections (7 cars S = 6 cars D) and a capacity decrease on the Metropolitan sections... ridiculous I know, as it would also entail platforms being extended at Bayswater and Notting Hill Gate at enormous cost.

I outlined earlier in this thread my idea of having 3 car units with high capacity (e.g. like C Stocks) and 4 car units with low capacity (e.g. like A Stocks... more seats), and running 3+3 on the H&C and Circle routes, 3+4 on the District and 4+4 on the Met. Therefore the seating arrangements are kept similar to present, the only oddity would be the Districts with 4 cars with lots of seats and 3 cars with few, but commuters would catch on soon enough and know which end of the train is more cattle-truck-like.

Anyhoo, I've only got 10 minutes left and need to have a nose around the rest of the forum, so need to go... back from Barbados in a week!
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Old June 19th, 2007, 12:24 PM   #1627
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...or have any other evidence that they exist...
I've seen them before online... they are basically the same times as the TFL journey planner will give you, except that the working timetables are down to half a minute or even 15 seconds on them. Apparently you can ask for copies of the working timetables under the freedom of information act, using Tfl's contact form on the website.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 09:03 PM   #1628
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After the close call at Camden Town, couldn't they do something simple like put a large sign near the platform saying "THIS IS THE WRONG WAY"?!
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Old June 20th, 2007, 11:02 PM   #1629
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...or have any other evidence that they exist...
Trust me, we do! As sweek rightly says every train movement is timetabled down to 30 second multiples. Big lines like the District's timetables are hundreds of pages thick (we're currently on working timetable 134, i.e. 133 have existed before!). Even standing time in platforms are denoted for stations like Earl's Court, again in multiples of 30 seconds as some trains have a timetabled standing time of 5 minutes or more... For example if a train departs Earl's Court at 15:55 but actually arrives at 15:53 the difference is denoted by a letter, with each letter equalling 30 seconds: a = 30 secs, b = 60 secs, c = 90 secs and so on, so in this instance the time appears as 15:d55 in the timetable.

The paths of Circle, H&C, Silverlink and empty SWT stock moves between East Putney and Wimbledon Park are also denoted in the District timetable, the latter two appearing by NR headcode as opposed to LU train set number.

For every single event of special working (e.g. suspensions due to engineering works) a new timetable needs to be drawn up by duty schedules, even if the works are a one-off. This also entails new sets of program rolls (ancient punch-card type technology which controls every signal action and train movement) to be devised each time and installed in the Interlocking Machine Rooms (basically where all the signalling equipment is housed trackside) overnight before the special working.

Its a huge operation (Duty Schedules and Timetables) and I certainly don't envy the people whose jobs it is to devise timetables and draw them up... it must be one of the saddest jobs in the world!
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Old June 25th, 2007, 06:30 PM   #1630
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Tubeman, some questions:

-Do you think the PPP has been a success? How do Tubelines and Metronet compare?

-I know this isn't underground related, but I thought i'd ask anyway... Do you think the CTRL will ever been extended up north, if so, what was the point in upgrading the WCML?

-Why was the WCMLs projected speed after the upgrade with the tilting pendolinos supposed to be 140mph, yet is a modest 125mph now?

-If the ECML was to be updated could it run faster as the route is much straighter?
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Old June 25th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #1631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Do you think the CTRL will ever been extended up north, if so, what was the point in upgrading the WCML?
Double-decker trains, to cut journeys between London and Birmingham to 45 minutes, are being considered.

Also see: www.greengauge21.net
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Old June 25th, 2007, 11:38 PM   #1632
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...

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Old June 26th, 2007, 11:00 PM   #1633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tubeman, some questions:

-Do you think the PPP has been a success? How do Tubelines and Metronet compare?
Now I'm Middle Management I'm not allowed to criticise PPP... But its shit

I'm actually quite ambivalent toward it... I warmly welcome the billions of pounds now being invested, but question the actual long-term value for money of the process, especially when I see just how much money is pissed away paying contractors to do nothing.

Overall, taking an holistic long-term view its atrocious value for money... But short term its great (essentially money for nothing).

It will come back to haunt us in 20 years and ruin us though, but hey the politicians who imposed it on us will be retired by then.

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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-I know this isn't underground related, but I thought i'd ask anyway... Do you think the CTRL will ever been extended up north, if so, what was the point in upgrading the WCML?
I doubt it... The connection to the WCML is being built so trains can run directly from Birmingham, Manchester (etc) to the Continent as soon as the CTRL opens anyway, so in a way the WCML upgrade plus the connection to the CTRL serves the same purpose.

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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Why was the WCMLs projected speed after the upgrade with the tilting pendolinos supposed to be 140mph, yet is a modest 125mph now?
There was an issue with the trains tilt mechanism not initially being activated, but I was under the impression this was resolved and trains were running at up to 140mph

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-If the ECML was to be updated could it run faster as the route is much straighter?
In many places I suspect yes.
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Old June 26th, 2007, 11:38 PM   #1634
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alright tubeman, this is my first post and i have got a few questions for you:

1) I'm a fan of DLR as a network but not as a substitute for building tube lines. would it be possible to convert DLR to heavy rail in the future? also what is the point of the woolwich extension of the DLR i am from the area, and a slow light rail won't regenerate, a jubilee extension and crossrail will. it's good for short connections to the underground for certain areas, but not for regeneration of a whole community, especially if crossrail is never built, am i wrong??
Hello!

None of the concrete viaduct sections of DLR are capable of taking heavy rail: they are too lightweight and have too steep gradients and too sharp curves. Other sections (e.g. Tower Gateway to Westferry) are built on original heavy rail viaduct so could be converted back, but in general its a resounding 'no'. With capacity upgrade to 3 articulated units sections can function quite respectably as a Tube substitute, along many stretches stations are a decent distance apart and accelertion / top speeds are equivalent. It functions best as a 'feeder' network, bringing residents from Docklands and the Thames Gateway to the nearest NR or Tube station.

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2) do you think they should make crossrail 2 a tube line again, i personally don't see how making it a crossrail line does anything to it, as a tube line, it is instantly recognisable as that and i think it would be more succesful, especially as if it follows the "chelney" route it will have a stupid amount of stops for a so called "suburban express", what do you think?

if it is built (whatever format), do you think it will free up enough capacity for the victoria line to be extended to croydon along the originally planned alignment, an do you think there would be enough of a case for it be done??
I personally feel 'Crossrails' are the future so would rather Crossrail 2 / Chelney was a surface-sized bore allowing suburban trains to cross from SW to NE London. It would certainly provide some relief to the Vic across Central London, but probably not enough to allow any more than the mooted terminal loop beyond Brixton to Herne Hill.

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3) Do you think London Overground will be a success initially with only the north and east london lines, and do u think that the southern termini should be streamlined to maybe just run croydon to highbury at a high frequency. rather than loads of low frequency southern termini.
Its amazing what a bit of rebranding and an addition to the Tube map would do for usership, people have a real mental block about living on a NR route rather than a Tube line... Its totally irrational. People would rather take the slow, hot District Line into London from Wimbledon than the fast, frequent airconditioned SWT trains just because its the Tube... its bizarre!

I would like to see slightly better branding, as you suggest the 'Overground' will appear as a bit of a tangled, many-branching monster on the map and would benefit from being further subdivided. The little offshoots to Crystal Palace and New Cross will look a bit odd, I admit... and the service will be to NR standard (i.e. about every 15 minutes) which doesn't really attract enough users to these termini.

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4) would it be possible to re-open the northern heights and finish it as originally planned as a separate line, if so would it be a good/viable idea?

also would a southern extension to cannon street be possible then taking over a suburban rail line or connection to the waterloo and city which i heard was originally planned?
Yes, totally possible. The route is basically intact and safeguarded barring a couple of 'temporary' school buildings at Muswell Hill. It was originally mooted that the ELLE should take over the Northern heights via the curve from Canonbury to Finsbury Park, why this excellent option wasn't pursued I don't know... Its a real shame.

A southern extenion is now less likely as Finsbury Park to Moorgate is fully established as a City terminus for suburban trains ex-ECML.

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5) How likely are the bakerloo and northern line (charing cross branch) southern extensions and where would their likely destinations be??
A Bakerloo extension to Hayes (Kent) via Walworth, Camberwell, Peckham, Brockley and Lewisham is currently being looked at. I don't think a Charing Cross branch extension beyond Kennington has been seriously looked at yet, but if / when the Northern line is split it would become a logical move.

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and will the northern be extended from morden to sutton??
Capacity wouldn't allow it now, but interestingly the LSWR built is Wimbledon - Sutton line in order to block the Northern Line's intended route beyond Morden to Sutton, and was built with the intention of the District Line operating services to Sutton. Sadly for the District Line the LSWR then neglected to build the flyover / flyunder at Wimbledon to allow them to exercise their running rights, so this never happened. Instead of a high-frequency Tube service to Sutton serving the huge Rosehill Estate we're left with a poorly-served NR backwater.

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6) finally you talk about what you would do to londons rail/tube network in many threads, but not in much detail from what i have seen, i was wondering if you could elaborate your ideas, and have you suggested them to anyone, at LU?
I could do, but its depressing as all my 'grand plans' would never happen due to funding so its a waste of my time. I have countless ideas for new lines or maximising capacity of existing lines, but its one thing to devise lines and another for them to actually happen. i would love to be LU's planning supremo one day, but I have no planning qualifications so probably wouldn't be taken seriously!
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Old June 27th, 2007, 04:44 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Why was the WCMLs projected speed after the upgrade with the tilting pendolinos supposed to be 140mph, yet is a modest 125mph now?

-If the ECML was to be updated could it run faster as the route is much straighter?
The plans to operate the Pendolino trains at 140 km/h were dependent on the installation of "moving block signalling" using the ETCS level #2 protocols. This was abandoned by the SRA as being to high a risk when it was discovered that no one had actually implimented "moving block" protocols . This may become a reality when Network Rail converts the WCML to the ETCS level #2 signaling protocols. The ECML may also be speeded up to 140 km/h when the ETCS level #2 protocols are installed on it!
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Old June 27th, 2007, 05:39 PM   #1636
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Thanks for that Trainman and Tubeman!

Quote:
The plans to operate the Pendolino trains at 140 km/h were dependent on the installation of "moving block signalling" using the ETCS level #2 protocols. This was abandoned by the SRA as being to high a risk when it was discovered that no one had actually implimented "moving block" protocols . This may become a reality when Network Rail converts the WCML to the ETCS level #2 signaling protocols. The ECML may also be speeded up to 140 km/h when the ETCS level #2 protocols are installed on it!
What does the French TGV run on? Couldn't they have just used something similar?
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Old June 27th, 2007, 07:24 PM   #1637
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Thanks for that Trainman and Tubeman!



What does the French TGV run on? Couldn't they have just used something similar?

The French use the TVM 430 protocols for most of their high speed network. On the new LGV-est, they have installed ETCS level #2 but I am not sure whether they are using the"moving block" variations in the Level #2 protocols.

TVM 430 is a old but well established protocol but it would very expensive to install on the British network as it is not designed to handle the wide variety of different speeds of trains which run on the same tracks in Britain.
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Old June 27th, 2007, 07:59 PM   #1638
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Old June 27th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #1639
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The French use the TVM 430 protocols for most of their high speed network. On the new LGV-est, they have installed ETCS level #2 but I am not sure whether they are using the"moving block" variations in the Level #2 protocols.

TVM 430 is a old but well established protocol but it would very expensive to install on the British network as it is not designed to handle the wide variety of different speeds of trains which run on the same tracks in Britain.
Okay that's cleared up

Aren't there long sections of four tracks on both the WCML and ECMLs though? Couldn't the centre ones be dedicated high speed lines?
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Old June 27th, 2007, 10:57 PM   #1640
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cheers tubeman, got another few questions for you if you don't mind?

1) When you travel into charing cross, just after waterloo east if you look left there is a chord towards waterloo station, i read somewhere that it was once operational but saw little service, which i think was a mistake. well what i am really asking is do u reckon it would be possible to re-open that and run a proportion of south eastern suburban trains through to swt and vice versa? the only problem i see would be which approach lines up with the chord, do you know, and do you think it would be a good idea?
The main problem with this chord is that it ran right across the concourse at Waterloo, and so if re-established would need to be negotiated by footbridges in the middle of the very busy Waterloo concourse. I really don't think the pros of having trains running through from SWT to SER outweigh the cons of buggering up the layout of Waterloo station. It would open up the possibility of a Crossrail on the cheap though, it reminds me of one of the Parisian RER routes which crosses the city hugging the southern side of the Seine, but going is painfully slow between Waterloo East and London Bridge so its not really an attractive rapid way of crossing central London.

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2) also you say crossrail is the future but you also say people travel on slower lines just so as to be associated with the tube. therefore, why don't they just brand crossrail as a london underground line, maybe the cross town line or a new network, london underground express or something along those lines?
As you rightly conclude its the branding / advertising which is important... If a Crossrail line appears on the Tube map and offers Tube-frequency services it will be as attractive as a Tube line to commuters. We are moving toward a position where TFL will (hopefully) one day assume control of all of London's suburban rail network. Its already beginning with assuming control of Silverlink and the harmonisation with the Oyster system on SWT. I think in perhaps 25 years the Tube map will be unrecognisable with many of the NR suburban routes appearing alongside (hopefully) a couple of Crossrail lines.

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3) do you reckon it would be possible to run 40 trains per hour along the victoria line? baring this in mind whats the maximum they can run along the gloucester road -tower hill section of the district reagrdless of current capacity?

sorry for the question pile,there's just a lot i'd really like to know!

cheers
Yes 40tph should be possible on the Victoria Line, I'd say that's probably the absolute maximum frequency possible on a metro line. It only really runs smoothly with short dwell times (i.e. the following trains aren't held up in the tunnel outside stations waiting for the train ahead to depart the platform), and if there's any sort of delay it all falls apart.

Personally, I think that a 2 minute maximum wait (i.e. 30 tph) is probably more of an optimal frequency as you at least have a bit of mitigation for longer dwell times and short delays.

If Gloucester Road to Tower Hill was ATO then there's no reason why similarly high frequencies couldn't be achieved (e.g. up to 40 tph), but the flat junction working at each end of the section throws a bit of a spanner in the works. With current signalling the section just about scrapes 30 tph (i.e. a Circle, Richmond, Ealing and Wimbledon train each every 8 minutes).
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