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Old June 27th, 2007, 11:03 PM   #1641
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2) do you think they should make crossrail 2 a tube line again, i personally don't see how making it a crossrail line does anything to it, as a tube line, it is instantly recognisable as that and i think it would be more succesful, especially as if it follows the "chelney" route it will have a stupid amount of stops for a so called "suburban express", what do you think?
Welcome to the forum!

I think crossrail should certainly remain a true suburban/commuter service, and not a tube line because it's purpose is quite different from that of the tube.

Not everyone who arrives by London's commuter lines need to get off at the terminus station. Many would rather continue further into central London, and others cross over to the other side. The commuter aspect of this allows people from further outside of London to also achieve this cross through service.

Other countries have these services and they are very successful. In Germany they are called S-Bahns. In Paris, it's the RER, and even London has the first of it's type with the successful Thames Link.

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2) also you say crossrail is the future but you also say people travel on slower lines just so as to be associated with the tube. therefore, why don't they just brand crossrail as a london underground line, maybe the cross town line or a new network, london underground express or something along those lines?
You are correct here. It does need proper branding. This has helped the S-bahns in Germany and RER in Paris. London's commuter/suburban network is excellent in it's size, but it lacks coherency. The fact that there are so many different company's and so many different ticketing systems makes it very confusing to the general public. Add to that, that it's not on the standard Tube map, it is often neglected.

They should have a single brand name, such as the S-bahn, and at least in the 6 zones, be properly displayed on the tube map. I know this may look cluttered, but if done right, it would really help.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 12:10 AM   #1642
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The plans to operate the Pendolino trains at 140 km/h were dependent on the installation of "moving block signalling" using the ETCS level #2 protocols. This was abandoned by the SRA as being to high a risk when it was discovered that no one had actually implimented "moving block" protocols . This may become a reality when Network Rail converts the WCML to the ETCS level #2 signaling protocols. The ECML may also be speeded up to 140 km/h when the ETCS level #2 protocols are installed on it!
1. 140mph (225kmh), not 140kmh. Trains run at 140kmh (85mph) on the ECML every day. (Can we please be rid of this miles and furlongs and gallons and hundredweights nonsense?)
2. ETCS level 2 isn't moving block. ETCS level 3, which nobody has implemented or appears to have any plans of implementing, would be moving block.

See http://www.ertms.com and/or http://etcs.uic.asso.fr for the gruesome details. Do a web search if you'd like less gruesomeness or more political/econonmic/practical analysis.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 12:26 AM   #1643
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Sorry about the units

I will go back to research the use of "Moving Block" in the ETCS protocals.

The PUG2 proposal for the WCML was based on implementing "Moving Block" signaling for the Pendolinos on the WCML.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 02:01 AM   #1644
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Tubeman, how come the Soviet vehicles sound remarkably similar to the 72TS and 67TS? Do they have a similar motor design or something?
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Old July 1st, 2007, 08:24 PM   #1645
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Tubeman, how come the Soviet vehicles sound remarkably similar to the 72TS and 67TS? Do they have a similar motor design or something?
I've never heard Soviet metro trains, but if the sound really is that similar then the answer is probably yes!
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 03:15 AM   #1646
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For comparision:

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Old July 3rd, 2007, 04:34 AM   #1647
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Sorry more...

1) I heard that the D Stock is the most reliable stock, why is this?

2) Why is the Eurostar restricted in terms of speed when travelling through the channel tunnel, and will it be restricted for the tunnelled sections of the CTRL2?
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 02:57 PM   #1648
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1. 140mph (225kmh), not 140kmh. Trains run at 140kmh (85mph) on the ECML every day. (Can we please be rid of this miles and furlongs and gallons and hundredweights nonsense?)
km/h, not kmh

I'm with you on the second point though (railway distances are measured in miles and chains, which confused the hell out of me the first time I came across it)...
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 03:24 PM   #1649
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 04:30 PM   #1650
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Tubeman, how come the Soviet vehicles sound remarkably similar to the 72TS and 67TS? Do they have a similar motor design or something?
Construction of the Russian metro trains is based on the Berlin "C" trains, which were taken by Russians from Berlin to Moscow after the war.
http://www.metro.ru/cars/german-c/
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 04:36 PM   #1651
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Construction of the Russian metro trains comes from Berlin "S" trains, which were transported from Berlin to Moscow after the war.
http://www.metro.ru/cars/german-c/
And how does that relate to the 72TS/67TS?
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 04:55 PM   #1652
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And how does that relate to the 72TS/67TS?
I don't know. Maybe technology of both types dates back to the 20's, when trains weren't so sophisticated. For sure it's a good explanation, why Russian trains are so loud. We have them also in Warsaw.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 10:58 PM   #1653
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For comparision:
I see what you mean... I wouldn't be surprised if they are both from the same era... are there any Moscow Metro buffs who can identify the stock and its age?

There's only so many ways of skinning a cat and metro trains of the same era are pretty similar wherever they are in the world (there are only so many companies developing the technology). All LU trains since the Vic 1967 stock have had some sort of rheostatic / regenerative braking... the 67, 72, 73, C and D all make similar noises during braking and acceleration, so I'd guess the Moscow trains in the clip use technology of roughly the same era (i.e. 1970's). Amazing station, by the way!
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 11:11 PM   #1654
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Sorry more...

1) I heard that the D Stock is the most reliable stock, why is this?

2) Why is the Eurostar restricted in terms of speed when travelling through the channel tunnel, and will it be restricted for the tunnelled sections of the CTRL2?
1) The D78 is so reliable because it refined the innovation of the 1973 stock (a round train safety circuit as opposed to a continuous 'Trainline' air pipe, which is prone to bursts) but was built before the fancy computery bollocks of stocks like the 92, 95, and 96 which are also prone to their glitches. In short, I'd say the success of the D Stock lies in its simplicity... probably the simplest underground stock. It has also not needed much modification prior to the current refurb... modifications often throw up little glitches because they take electrical feeds off other circuits which were not designed to supply them. The refurbs are already proving less reliable than the unrefurbed D stocks because of the modifications.

2) I assume because of the physics of trains driving through long tunnels (i.e. air pressure) speeds are limited to 100mph / 160kmh... I assume the same will be the case for the London tunnels too therefore.
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 11:12 PM   #1655
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What was it like in Barbados?
Hot, sunny... lovely

(But off-topic!)
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Old July 3rd, 2007, 11:30 PM   #1656
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I don't know. Maybe technology of both types dates back to the 20's, when trains weren't so sophisticated. For sure it's a good explanation, why Russian trains are so loud. We have them also in Warsaw.
No, the rheostatic brake was really cutting-edge technology when the 1967 stock was introduced... Its definitely a 1960's innovation.

Prior to this braking was EP (Electro-pneumatic), i.e. electrical impulses from the driver's brake handle apllying brake blocks onto the wheels with air pressure. Trains with pure E.P. are relatively quiet braking compared to trains with rheo (especially trains with rheo from the 60's and 70's, which can be very noisy braking). The first Tube stock which used E.P. if I remember correctly was the 1938 stock, however as it doesn't 'fail safe' all trains with E.P. built before the 1973 stock also had Westinghouse as well (as that does fail safe... described below).

Even further back stocks had the 'Westinghouse' brake only, which in a nutshell invloves a continuous 'Trainline' air pipe which causes the brakes to apply when its pressure drops. This either happens suddenly (train 'trips' on a red signal or the driver 'drops the Deadman'), or slowly through a Westinghouse brake application: the driver gradually drops the pressure in the Trainline pipe to bring the train to a gentle stop. The 'Westinghouse' is a real skill as it doesn't respond immediately (there is a lag of a few seconds between the driver making an application and the brake blocks applying), and plus if you over-do it in panic it takes a good few seconds to get the brakes to release. I used to enjoy using it as its quite a challenge, but its not for the faint hearted and certainly ill-advised at short platforms like Bayswater.

Of the remaining LU stocks:

A60 = EP + Westinghouse
67, C69 & 72 = EP + Rheo + Westinghouse
73 & D78 = EP + Rheo + Round train circuit
92, 95 & 96 = EP + Regenerative + Round train circuit

...You can see how technology has evolved
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Old July 4th, 2007, 01:42 AM   #1657
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You're an authentic tubeman.
Thanks for the explanation.

EDIT
I've read on the Polish and Czech sites, that Russian trains 81-717 from the late 70's and 80's, like that one on the video, have electrodynamic and pneumatic brakes. Electrodynamic as an elementary brake and pneumatic as supplementary brake.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 06:05 PM   #1658
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1) The D78 is so reliable because it refined the innovation of the 1973 stock (a round train safety circuit as opposed to a continuous 'Trainline' air pipe, which is prone to bursts) but was built before the fancy computery bollocks of stocks like the 92, 95, and 96 which are also prone to their glitches. In short, I'd say the success of the D Stock lies in its simplicity... probably the simplest underground stock. It has also not needed much modification prior to the current refurb... modifications often throw up little glitches because they take electrical feeds off other circuits which were not designed to supply them. The refurbs are already proving less reliable than the unrefurbed D stocks because of the modifications.

2) I assume because of the physics of trains driving through long tunnels (i.e. air pressure) speeds are limited to 100mph / 160kmh... I assume the same will be the case for the London tunnels too therefore.
THere doesn't seem to be much of a problem on the railways here, there are loads of tunnels on the ECML where the driver appears to go into at normal speed. I would have thought that the larger more advanced tunnels would mean full speed, it seems a bit of a waste really... Thanks for that

ALso, heres a clearer vid of the 1967 Stock arriving, they sound similar but the soviet trians are noisier, I think they're older.

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Old July 5th, 2007, 12:38 AM   #1659
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You're an authentic tubeman.
Thanks for the explanation.

EDIT
I've read on the Polish and Czech sites, that Russian trains 81-717 from the late 70's and 80's, like that one on the video, have electrodynamic and pneumatic brakes. Electrodynamic as an elementary brake and pneumatic as supplementary brake.
I was spot on then, 1970's

If you're feeling like a real nerd watch the brake gauge on any train with E.P. + Rheostatic / Electrodynamic / Regenerative braking.

When the train starts braking the brake pressure needle initially jumps up to provide immediate response to the brake application made. As soon as the Rheo 'proves' (i.e. the moaning / whining noise starts) all the air is released from the brakes as braking becomes purely electrical (i.e. no fricition), and it remains so until speed reduces to about 10-15kmh below which the Rheo is ineffective, so the brake gauge needle will again jump up as air re-enters the brake cylinders and the brake blocks re-apply until the train comes to a halt.

The principle of Rheostatic braking is that one motor becomes a dynamo generator to supply the energy to reverse the field on the other motor, thus they both mutually slow each other down without any friction brakes being applied. This reduces wear & tear and tunnel dust (which is mostly formed from brake blocks).
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Old July 5th, 2007, 12:41 AM   #1660
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THere doesn't seem to be much of a problem on the railways here, there are loads of tunnels on the ECML where the driver appears to go into at normal speed. I would have thought that the larger more advanced tunnels would mean full speed, it seems a bit of a waste really... Thanks for that

ALso, heres a clearer vid of the 1967 Stock arriving, they sound similar but the soviet trians are noisier, I think they're older.

I would be surprised if any tunnels on the ECML have speed limits higher than 100mph.
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