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Old July 20th, 2007, 11:47 AM   #1681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I think its purely distance from a central point (Charing Cross?) with each ring being elliptical (i.e. wider west to east than north to south). I suppose the stations deemed in two zones must have fallen on or near these distance rings. It seems a bit silly having stations in two zones to me... Its bad for revenue if nothing else.
I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than that. The Hainault loop has been moved into zone 4 completely to attract more passengers for example, and Hampstead Heath was moved to zone 3 (from zone 2) so passengers on the North London Line wouldn't be able to travel too cheaply for a very long distance. Earl's Court is a zone 1/2 I think, because the station can be used to bypass central London, for example when going from Putney Green to Acton Town, in which case it'd be unfair to make that person pay for travelling through Central London. But it can also be used for trips that are wholly within Central London, like High Street Kensington to Victoria when there's no circle line train coming any time soon.
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Old July 21st, 2007, 02:09 AM   #1682
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Tubeman
-Do you think the stations in the central section should be restored to their former glory or do you think they should be more modern looking, and have no unity in design?
-How come Central line trains are so bloody close together? I know its ATO but i've waited at times in the central section and trains are coming one after the other!
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Old July 21st, 2007, 02:09 PM   #1683
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I'm guessing it's a bit more complicated than that. The Hainault loop has been moved into zone 4 completely to attract more passengers for example, and Hampstead Heath was moved to zone 3 (from zone 2) so passengers on the North London Line wouldn't be able to travel too cheaply for a very long distance. Earl's Court is a zone 1/2 I think, because the station can be used to bypass central London, for example when going from Putney Green to Acton Town, in which case it'd be unfair to make that person pay for travelling through Central London. But it can also be used for trips that are wholly within Central London, like High Street Kensington to Victoria when there's no circle line train coming any time soon.
Oh yes there have certainly been a few 'tweaks' like Epping being brought into Zone 6 a few years ago (was in special Zone A which now only exists on the Met main)... I supose it was deemed 'silly' to have a line straying outside zone 6 for its terminus, espcially after the Ongar branch closed. The reasons for stations like Earl's Court being on the border are also sensible, but essentially lose us money, as you say you can travel from Putney to Hammersmith without straying into Zone 1 for example and thus save money.

I'm pretty sure the basic boundaries are purely dictated by distance though, through elliptical rings radiating from a central point.
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Old July 21st, 2007, 02:18 PM   #1684
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Tubeman
-Do you think the stations in the central section should be restored to their former glory or do you think they should be more modern looking, and have no unity in design?
-How come Central line trains are so bloody close together? I know its ATO but i've waited at times in the central section and trains are coming one after the other!
Stations with mostly original features should be restored like Baker Street Circle, Notting Hill Gate, the largely intact Yerkes stations etc, but many have been 'modernised' beyond repair at some point and would benefit from an ultra-modern renovation for variety. Knightsbridge is a good example of this: It was modernised in the mid-20th Century (late 30's or 40's?) and ended up with the tatty biscuit-coloured tiles of that era (other examples: Highgate, Aldgate East, Bethnal Green etc). When it was further renovated about 2 years ago modern metal panels were fitted over the top of the crappy tiles to make the station look very futuristic. Doing this to a 'classic' Yerkes station would be sacriligous in my opinion, and fortunately recent renovations of these stations have been very tasteful and faithful to the originals (e.g. Mornington Crescent, Tufnell Park, Camden Town etc), but there are a lot of poor 'modern' renovations which would benefit from something more contemporary (Tottenham Court Road for example).

Regarding closely-spaced Central Line trains, this is thanks to ATO as you note. This wouldn't be the timetable frequency, but the result of a delay somewhere causing 'blocking back' so the trains bunch up. I presume the timetabled frequency is somewhere in the region of 2 minutes.
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Old July 21st, 2007, 06:06 PM   #1685
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Thanks Tubeman, the Central line also never seems to go between stations without slowing down and speeding up either, and it sometimes arrives at a station only to speed up and then slow down harder!

Do you think it would be feasible to extend the central vestibule at Victoria's Victoria line platforms to the ened of the platforms much like the Moscow Metro? It would alleviate overcrowding as passengers would no longer have to walk down the platform but instead down the central vestibule.
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Old July 21st, 2007, 07:12 PM   #1686
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Thanks Tubeman, the Central line also never seems to go between stations without slowing down and speeding up either, and it sometimes arrives at a station only to speed up and then slow down harder!

Do you think it would be feasible to extend the central vestibule at Victoria's Victoria line platforms to the ened of the platforms much like the Moscow Metro? It would alleviate overcrowding as passengers would no longer have to walk down the platform but instead down the central vestibule.
That's a drawback of ATO... there's no 'intelligence' to it. On a manual line if the driver can see they're close to the train in front they'll shut off and coast (roll) or maybe wait a little longer in each station to regulate the service preventing unnecessary accelerating and braking (thus saving energy and wear & tear). ATO pretty much just works on the 'stop' or 'go' premise, so you have the idiocy of a train crawling into a platform, then accelerating sharply, then braking sharply, as the train in front accelerates away you noted. It maximises capacity, but is very wasteful of energy.

WRT Victoria I'm sure its not impossible, but there is obviously the District Line and concourse above which would complicate matters. It would certainly help the crowd problems there.
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Old July 21st, 2007, 07:53 PM   #1687
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Tunneling shield? The stations on the Moscow Metro are sometimes twice as deep as ours yet they're probably twice as spacious!

I also have another question, sorry... but how come the Central line only has 2 platforms at Ealing Broadway where the much less frequent service of the District gets 3? I rarely see more than one District line platform used there...
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 03:19 AM   #1688
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Tubeman, what's going on at King's Cross, i've noticed on the Northern line platforms there are boards up and some structual things are exposed... Do you know when the Piccadilly/Northern platforms are being refurbished?
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 12:26 PM   #1689
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tunneling shield? The stations on the Moscow Metro are sometimes twice as deep as ours yet they're probably twice as spacious!

I also have another question, sorry... but how come the Central line only has 2 platforms at Ealing Broadway where the much less frequent service of the District gets 3? I rarely see more than one District line platform used there...
The Central Line has 3 platforms at Ealing Broadway... I'm certain.

Most of the day with the 8 minute off-peak service to Ealing Broadway 2 platforms is all that are required for the District service, but last thing at night trains come thick & fast to be detrained and run empty to Ealing Common Depot, so all 3 platforms are definitely required then.

Dwell time is also a factor: District Line trains usually have 10-15 minutes timetabled at termini to allow timetable recovery, perhaps the Central Line has less due to ATO ensuring the timetable is more closely adhered to.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 12:27 PM   #1690
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Tubeman, what's going on at King's Cross, i've noticed on the Northern line platforms there are boards up and some structual things are exposed... Do you know when the Piccadilly/Northern platforms are being refurbished?
Yes, the entire station complex is being renovated. The Tube platforms are the last parts to get the treatment.
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Old July 24th, 2007, 01:52 AM   #1691
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Thanks for that.

Tubeman:

-Why are stations in Zone 1 so shabby? There are few nice stations there...
-What will the frequencies on the Northern and Jubilee lines be when they get ATO?
-When the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines trains are replaced, will they be the same or does the fact that they're under different infracos effect this?
-Does ATO take into account things such as gradients etc. and does it coast?
-Why are lines 'ATOified' and not made driverless instead? If it is because of tunnel size then will the sub-surface network be able to become fully driverless because of larger tunnels?
-How come Kilburn Park has a Charles Yerkes style frontage yet it was extended way after the era?
-I've been reading this website: http://www.dougrose.co.uk it's about Yerkes tiles, and i'm wondering who the hell got rid of them? Many of the stations in Zone 1 had them covered up or ripped out, why?!? They're gorgeous! I've noticed Elephant & Castle has had it's covered with, wait for it... white tiles! I thought the infracos were supposed to preserve heritage. I was wondering if it would ever be possible/feasible to recreate tiling from old photographs etc for future renovations?

Sorry for all the questions!

Last edited by iampuking; July 24th, 2007 at 09:26 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2007, 01:01 AM   #1692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Thanks for that.

Tubeman:

-Why are stations in Zone 1 so shabby? There are few nice stations there...
-What will the frequencies on the Northern and Jubilee lines be when they get ATO?
-When the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines trains are replaced, will they be the same or does the fact that they're under different infracos effect this?
-Does ATO take into account things such as gradients etc. and does it coast?
-Why are lines 'ATOified' and not made driverless instead? If it is because of tunnel size then will the sub-surface network be able to become fully driverless because of larger tunnels?
-How come Kilburn Park has a Charles Yerkes style frontage yet it was extended way after the era?
-I've been reading this website: http://www.dougrose.co.uk it's about Yerkes tiles, and i'm wondering who the hell got rid of them? Many of the stations in Zone 1 had them covered up or ripped out, why?!? They're gorgeous! I've noticed Elephant & Castle has had it's covered with, wait for it... white tiles! I thought the infracos were supposed to preserve heritage. I was wondering if it would ever be possible/feasible to recreate tiling from old photographs etc for future renovations?

Sorry for all the questions!
Hey that's what I'm here for

- Shabby Zone 1 stations... Hmm I can't say I've especially noticed them being bad. I think its a little bizarre that many of the major station overhauls have all been on the most minor stations like Mornington Crescent, Regents Park, Lancaster gate, Queensway, Tufnell park, Kentish Town: many of them closed down for protracted spells... its almost as if the stations being completely overhauled are only the ones we can afford to close for a few months... they all look stunning now, great restorations. I think it may partly be because some needed lifts replacing, and while this was happening the stations were unusuable, so the opportunity was taken to spruce them up. Many of the sprawling Zone 1 interchanges are a little the worse for wear, and as work can only progress for a few hours each night progress seems painfully slow (Oxford Circus for example).

- Northern and Jubilee line frequencies with ATO: I expect in the region of 30 tph

- New Bakerloo and Picc trains: I believe they are both going to be Bombardier 'Movia' stock, despite being different business units. With Tubelines' success and Metronet's demise I wouldn't be surprised if Tubelines ends up maintaining the lot, though.

- ATO and gradients... good question. I would have thought that codes are specific to a particular section of track to account for this, so that on downhill gradients the 'brake' command is triggered assuming a longer braking distance than if the gradient's uphill. If you catch my drift! ATO would tell the train to coast if it reached line speed for a particular section, not an issue on the Victoria Line because it was engineered for ATO, but the Central still has plenty of torturous curves which will have permanent speed restrictions.

- ATO not driverless? As you rightly surmise its safety: there is no walkway alongside trains so trains must be staffed really. The only exception is the JLE, but the section from Finchley Road to Green park has no walkway, so driverless trains are out of the question. The Subsurface tunnels have no walkways and no room for them either... train-to-train detrainment is possible side by side, but staff are needed to coordinate this, so again trains can't realistically be driverless.

- Kilburn Park: You're right, I'd never thought about it, but its definitely very Yerkes-esque despite coming a decade after the Yerkes stations. Its subtely different (a little more 'busy' / ornate), but the tiles are very similar. I suppose the distinctive red terrazo (?) tiling became such a powerful advert for a tube station's presence that it was stuck with for the Queens Park extension... an early form of corporate branding I suppose?



- Preserving Yerkes stations... There are many well-restored / preserved Yerkes stations out there so perhaps its assumed that stations where the tiling has already been destroyed during past 'improvement' works needn't be restored to their original state? Its a shame, but at least there are many good examples left.
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Old July 25th, 2007, 02:02 AM   #1693
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Regarding driverless trains:

How does the Paris Metro line 1 work then? Isn't it the oldest on their system, so I doubt it'll have walkways, isn't it unsafe for it to be driverless? Also, if a tube was to be driverless wouldn't it have a member of staff doing the doors like on the DLR?

And regarding the stations, a lot of the stations in Zone 1 were originally Yerkes stations and were truly gorgeous, yet they've been destroyed by 80s-90s 'refurbishments', do you think they will ever remake the tiles to the original?

Take Piccadilly Circus for example:

image hosted on flickr


Hideous.

and then: http://www.dougrose.co.uk the 7th one down on the "Walk along the platform" section, brilliant!

It riles me that they changed them in the first place!!!
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Old July 26th, 2007, 12:28 AM   #1694
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That's a great site: a real labour of love.

Paris doesn't seem that bothered about staffing levels... barring drivers I don't recall ever seeing a single member of Metro staff there. I'm not too sure about their driverless lines... I know the new Ligne 14 is driverless, but there are walkways in the tunnels and PEDs at the stations. Maybe if other lines are also driverless its every man / woman for themselves if there's a problem between stations.

If the Tube became driverless then I'd like to think a Train Captain would be retained like the DLR: but to be honest it pretty much defeats the point if you're still employing someone to be on the train: they might as well be in the front cab in case the ATO fails and the train needs to be driven manually (essentially fulfilling the role of a Victoria or Central Line 'driver').

Regarding restoration to Yerkes tiling schemes of already destroyed stations, I doubt it will happen. I presume the consensus is there are enough well-preserved examples of Yerles stations already.
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Old July 26th, 2007, 09:00 PM   #1695
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How does the Paris Metro line 1 work then? Isn't it the oldest on their system, so I doubt it'll have walkways, isn't it unsafe for it to be driverless? Also, if a tube was to be driverless wouldn't it have a member of staff doing the doors like on the DLR?
Line 14 is driverless and stations have platform edge screens up to the ceiling to stop people getting onto the track, so that it's safe to control the doors remotely. Line 1 will be converted to driverless ATO in the next couple of years, and the stations will get platform edge screens but they won't be full-height. A photo of a prototype installation was on a thread here quite recently.
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Old July 27th, 2007, 06:13 AM   #1696
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Line 14 is driverless and stations have platform edge screens up to the ceiling to stop people getting onto the track, so that it's safe to control the doors remotely. Line 1 will be converted to driverless ATO in the next couple of years, and the stations will get platform edge screens but they won't be full-height. A photo of a prototype installation was on a thread here quite recently.
Yes, but what about walkways? Isn't it an EU requirement for automated systems?

And Tubeman, why can't the Yerkes stations be restored? On the website it shows that few of the stations retain their original tile pattern, merely being replaced by a pastiche. Also, most of the Yerkes stations that have been restored are not in the centre, the infracos seem to spend all the time and effort restoring the tiles in stations like Regent's Park and Arsenal, why can't they do Oxford Circus or Waterloo which are much more heavily used? Why can't we have some decent decoration in a central station where all the tourists can see instead of this uber bland white tiling that Metronet seem to adore?
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Old July 28th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #1697
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Yes, but what about walkways? Isn't it an EU requirement for automated systems?

And Tubeman, why can't the Yerkes stations be restored? On the website it shows that few of the stations retain their original tile pattern, merely being replaced by a pastiche. Also, most of the Yerkes stations that have been restored are not in the centre, the infracos seem to spend all the time and effort restoring the tiles in stations like Regent's Park and Arsenal, why can't they do Oxford Circus or Waterloo which are much more heavily used? Why can't we have some decent decoration in a central station where all the tourists can see instead of this uber bland white tiling that Metronet seem to adore?
I never said they can't be restored... They just probably won't. White tiles are cheap and Metronet are in the shit, and that's the basic fact of the matter.
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Old July 28th, 2007, 10:08 PM   #1698
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I never said they can't be restored... They just probably won't. White tiles are cheap and Metronet are in the shit, and that's the basic fact of the matter.
Okay sorry, I feel incredibly adolescent and "the world is against me" about this issue as you can see

Do you think with a new and better infraco there may be an incentive to restore the tiles?

To be fair, weren't the majority of Central line stations (which are the majority of what have been refurbished) originally tiled in white, white and more white, a la Lancaster Gate unrefurbished. So they are effectively being 'restored'?

Last edited by iampuking; July 28th, 2007 at 10:22 PM.
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Old July 28th, 2007, 11:58 PM   #1699
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Don't worry iampuking, the line 1 has walkways

Exemple here on ground section it is the same in tunnel
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Old July 29th, 2007, 03:14 AM   #1700
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Okay sorry, I feel incredibly adolescent and "the world is against me" about this issue as you can see

Do you think with a new and better infraco there may be an incentive to restore the tiles?

To be fair, weren't the majority of Central line stations (which are the majority of what have been refurbished) originally tiled in white, white and more white, a la Lancaster Gate unrefurbished. So they are effectively being 'restored'?

Yes the Central London Railway stations were all tiled in plain white tiles, so restorations / refurbishments like Queensway and Lancaster Gate are pretty faithful (if boring).

Personally, I hope that Tubelines are given the contract for the entire network, as they have done a professional and frugal job of maintaining JNP.
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