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Old August 16th, 2007, 05:50 PM   #1741
Tubeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Tubeman,

On the subject of the City and South London line. I realise that when first constructed it had a terminus at King William Street in the City. This was closed and a new station south of the river opened at London Bridge together with two new Thames tunnels to carry the line on its present alignment to Bank.

However, the C&SL was noted for the small diameter of its tunnels (about 10'6"). When the line was upgraded, was the diameter increased not only in the new sections but in the existing section that went down as far as Stockwell?

What I'm really asking is if any of the small diameter section still remains in use.
Acemcbuller has already answered your query... The entire Bank Branch was shut for 2 years (1922-24 I think) to enlarge the tunnels, and not without event either... I believe the was a catastrophic collapse through The City during the works which set them back significantly.

The tunnels to King William Street are still largely intact: parts of Prodigy's 'Firestarter' video were filmed down there, and the tunnel from Borough to Stockwell is original C&SLR tunnel, albeit expanded.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 05:56 PM   #1742
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tubeman, what did the original City & South London tiling look like?
Plain boring white I believe, Like the Central London Railway. Part of Borough station is original C&SLR tiling still.
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Old August 16th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #1743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Plain boring white I believe, Like the Central London Railway. Part of Borough station is original C&SLR tiling still.
It seems to me that Yerkes tube lines were the only ones with any kind of imagination...
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Old August 17th, 2007, 03:54 AM   #1744
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hey tubeman haven't talked for some time here well anyways i want to know somethings

so what is the news lately with the High Speed 1 the CTRL is there new pics of the stations and such

i heard that the eurostar went to visit there to st Pacreas international station and well i also heard many things of eurostar is there any new pics of the station and the other stations and such

also tubeman i am not sure if you are aware but i been planning for a major international high speed railway for Asia like it did for europe i am not an engineer but its an a huge transportation railway project but its in the Railways section so you can come and see

anyways i heard about also the DLR is there pics of the construction of the platforms of the Straford and also the construction of the Straford international DLR line and the pics of the construction of the woolwich DLR station
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Old August 17th, 2007, 04:43 AM   #1745
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Latest on CTRL: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...242636&page=22

Heres pictures of the new DLR platforms at Stratford:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Sorry for stealing answers from you...
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Old August 17th, 2007, 05:59 AM   #1746
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but there is no pics from the CTRL and also thank you king

anyways also about the Straford international DLR Route is there any pics of it underconstuction and also about the woolwich tunnel and station for the DLR

it looks futuristic touching very cool
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Old August 17th, 2007, 12:25 PM   #1747
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...

Last edited by bigbossman; July 4th, 2012 at 08:47 PM.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 03:02 PM   #1748
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Tubeman, I know this question might have been asked a zillion times, but which train is it in your avatar and can you post a full picture here?
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Old August 17th, 2007, 03:10 PM   #1749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Neither... As the Jubilee line extension was extending an existing 'Tube' tunnel in parts 70 years old, trains could only be as large as the smallest tunnel (i.e. standard 'Tube' size), but the JLE was built with a larger diameter purely to accommodate an evacuation walkway alongside the track. Therefore the JLE is larger diameter than standard 'Tube' tunnel, but still far smaller than surface stock size tunnel.
Thanks!

If only all new extensions had the standard tunnel size, then if the Jubilee Line Extension ever becomes a separate line after more extensions it could finally be a standard metro line (standard large sized tunnels that is, not that the metro line is substandard)

Then again, I don't know how the London Tube works so its just a crazy thought.

Last edited by ignoramus; August 17th, 2007 at 06:22 PM.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 05:01 PM   #1750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoramus View Post
Thanks!

If only all new extensions had the standard tunnel size, then if the Jubilee Line Extension ever becomes a separate line after more extensions it could finally be a standard metro line.

Then again, I don't know how the London Tube works so its just a crazy thought.
It is a standard metro line.

Many older systems have smaller than ideal train sizes, Paris Metro has lines with only 5 carriages per train because the platforms are too short, and the New York Subway has short carriages on some lines because of tight curves. Let us not forget the Tokyo Metro has some narrow platforms as well. Would you call them sub-standard metros?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Songoten2554
but there is no pics from the CTRL and also thank you king

anyways also about the Straford international DLR Route is there any pics of it underconstuction and also about the woolwich tunnel and station for the DLR

it looks futuristic touching very cool
Stratford International route hasn't even started construction, it's not due to open until 2010 at the earliest... The only work I think that has been done has been removing of the old Silverlink track.

And there are no pics of the Woolwich extension to my knowledge, it's a rather minor part of the line so gets little press coverage, and the press don't really report projects like this unless they're over budget and delayed...
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Old August 17th, 2007, 05:30 PM   #1751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
It is a standard metro line.

Many older systems have smaller than ideal train sizes, Paris Metro has lines with only 5 carriages per train because the platforms are too short, and the New York Subway has short carriages on some lines because of tight curves. Let us not forget the Tokyo Metro has some narrow platforms as well. Would you call them sub-standard metros?



Stratford International route hasn't even started construction, it's not due to open until 2010 at the earliest... The only work I think that has been done has been removing of the old Silverlink track.

And there are no pics of the Woolwich extension to my knowledge, it's a rather minor part of the line so gets little press coverage, and the press don't really report projects like this unless they're over budget and delayed...
No thats not what I meant.

What I mean was that if the Jubilee Line Extension had been built with standard sized tunnels (today's standard) it would be a metro line with a standard sized tunnel, a first for the London Tube. Of course it isn't practical.

I didnt say metros which do not have standard sized tunnels are substandard.

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Old August 17th, 2007, 05:51 PM   #1752
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Tubeman... Would TfL ever install 'smart' escalators, the ones that only move when someone steps on them, it saves energy apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoramus View Post
No thats not what I meant.

What I mean was that if the Jubilee Line Extension had been built with standard sized tunnels (today's standard) it would be a metro line with a standard sized tunnel, a first for the London Tube. Of course it isn't practical.
A first for the Underground? Have you not heard of the Circle, East London, District, Hammersmith & City, or Metropolitan lines?

And even though you didn't intend to say that the Tube lines were sub-standard, it certainly came across that way.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 06:21 PM   #1753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tubeman... Would TfL ever install 'smart' escalators, the ones that only move when someone steps on them, it saves energy apparently.



A first for the Underground? Have you not heard of the Circle, East London, District, Hammersmith & City, or Metropolitan lines?

And even though you didn't intend to say that the Tube lines were sub-standard, it certainly came across that way.
1. I thought I read somewhere they were larger tunnels but still not large enough?

2. Well I am sorry if it came across that way........................... It was certainly not intended.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 07:57 PM   #1754
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The Circle, District, East London, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines are the oldest lines, constructed using the cut-and-cover method, meaning they had to dig up streets for them to be constructed... They're twin bore, like the Paris Metro of the New York Subway, and were built for steam trains therefore there are many sections in open cuttings (where the steam was designed to escape) And yes, they're big enough, in fact, the Metropolitan line's A Stock has the largest loading guage in all of Britain...

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Here is the notable size difference:

image hosted on flickr


More pictures here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...242643&page=19
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Old August 17th, 2007, 08:54 PM   #1755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
The Circle, District, East London, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines are the oldest lines, constructed using the cut-and-cover method, meaning they had to dig up streets for them to be constructed... They're twin bore, like the Paris Metro of the New York Subway, and were built for steam trains therefore there are many sections in open cuttings (where the steam was designed to escape) And yes, they're big enough, in fact, the Metropolitan line's A Stock has the largest loading guage in all of Britain...

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Here is the notable size difference:

image hosted on flickr


More pictures here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...242643&page=19
Oh okay thanks! That helped.

Do they come with air conditioning/heating? Cause the deeper tube tunnels were to small to incorporate air conditioning units right.

So are they Tokyo Metro size for instance?
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Old August 17th, 2007, 09:42 PM   #1756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignoramus View Post
Oh okay thanks! That helped.

Do they come with air conditioning/heating? Cause the deeper tube tunnels were to small to incorporate air conditioning units right.

So are they Tokyo Metro size for instance?
They haven't got air conditioning yet, but the new S Stock to be introduced in 2010 will have it. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S_Stock

And the tube lines probably don't have enough space for air conditioning units, but there is nowhere to get rid of the hot air that comes from an air conditioning unit, it would have to be pumped into the small tunnels, making the stations even hotter. There was a thing in the paper about how a different type of air cooling would be incorporated into the tube lines, it sounded promising.

image hosted on flickr


And here is the interior of a sub surface District D Stock, I don't know if it's larger than the Tokyo Metro so see for yourself

image hosted on flickr
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Old August 17th, 2007, 09:46 PM   #1757
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Tubeman, why don't they not make Crossrail's underground section powered by third rail? The tunnels could have a smaller diameter, and they could switch to overheard wires when overground (like Thameslink) it would save money to bore smaller tunnels...
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Old August 17th, 2007, 10:11 PM   #1758
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thanks tubeman,

1) with regards to capacity of the tube, the bakerloo and northern extensions i think are a good idea, extending the bakerloo into bromley might be suicide during the peaks though, big commuter area where traisn could be full before they've left the borough, my local station is north greenwich i live about 3-4 miles away but people would rather sit on a bus for an hour to get to one of these stations than use a local south eastern station, thee 486 is usually packed to at least welling in peak time. thats the problem if your gonna extend south you need as much capacity as possible.

2) to get capacity down the wimbledon branch of the district scrap the kensington olympia branch and run all them trains down there, wouldn't that be a temporary solution, also why can't they put money into getting rid of the flat junctions before crossrail and that.

3) i've always though they should divert the metropolitan line at liverpool street down the shenfield metro, as far a i know liverpool street is a low station so it would only involve building some connection. i reckon if they do the t-cup thing with the circle then they could divert more metropolitan line trains down the northern side of the circle. i reckon this would be perfect instead of crossrail. then they should extend more district trains from tower hill or something i dunno.

4) i think crossrail terminating at abbey wood, would ruin the area, too many people are gonna try and converge on that station as it is on the border of bexley and the area could become gridlocked during peak times, it's a stupid idfea terminating it there, what do you think?

cheers tubeman
1) Yeah, its a fine balance... Its undeniable that the southern end of the B'loo has capacity to burn at present, but extending it miles into suburbia would as you say be suicide. Personally I'd contemplate a shorter extension stopping at Walworth (East Street market), Camberwell Green and terminating at Peckham Rye.

2) The Olympias are only every 15 minutes so would only add another 4tph, and the trains would have to terminate at High Street Kensington. Its actually a fairly well-used service anyway, with a couple of hundred per train in the peak and thousands per hour during exhibitions. Digging out flying junctions would be enormously beneficial to SSR, but the engineering headache of trying to create flying junctions in 150 years old brick tunnels without collapse or lengthy suspensions is prohibitive. Praed Street (Edgware Rd), Minories (Tower Hill), Aldgate, Aldgate East, Baker Street and Gloucester Road junctions would all benefit greatly from being 'flying' as opposed to 'flat', but I presume we're stuck with them as they are.

3) That's a good idea, actually... Not one I'd thought of. There was actually once a connection curving off the Metropolitan / Circle / H&C line tunnel West of Liverpool Street directly into the mainline terminus (platforms 1 and 2) which would have allowed this service. Sadly the curve was rarely used and has now been partially obstructed, so opportunity lost. Places like Forest gate, Ilford and Romford would benefit greatly from an LU service through Central London.

4) I don't think the intention is for services to terminate at Abbey Wood, that's just where the tunnel portal will be. Trains ex-Crossrail will continue along the North Kent Lines through Dartford to Ebbsfleet.
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Old August 17th, 2007, 10:33 PM   #1759
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Tubeman, I know this question might have been asked a zillion times, but which train is it in your avatar and can you post a full picture here?
Its a British Rail Class 401 EMU (Southern Region) or 2-Bil

I can't remember where I got the original photo from, below are some variations on a theme:





[IMG]http://i11.************/4q6awsg.jpg[/IMG]

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Old August 17th, 2007, 10:44 PM   #1760
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
It is a standard metro line.

Many older systems have smaller than ideal train sizes, Paris Metro has lines with only 5 carriages per train because the platforms are too short, and the New York Subway has short carriages on some lines because of tight curves. Let us not forget the Tokyo Metro has some narrow platforms as well. Would you call them sub-standard metros?
I think he just meant in terms of standard loading gauge... go easy on him fella!

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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Stratford International route hasn't even started construction, it's not due to open until 2010 at the earliest... The only work I think that has been done has been removing of the old Silverlink track.
The track's all still very much in situ, at least through Canning Town and Custom House. I wouldn't be surprised of the DLR runs on the very same rails, as its all fairly decent modern concrete-sleeper continuous welded rail track. All that's needed is the addition of the DLR third rail and ATO track circuits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
And there are no pics of the Woolwich extension to my knowledge, it's a rather minor part of the line so gets little press coverage, and the press don't really report projects like this unless they're over budget and delayed...
The tunnel:

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