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Old October 15th, 2007, 10:30 PM   #1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Thanks a lot for that answer, very informative!

Could the dip between Euston and King's Cross be due to the Piccadilly line? It is situated above the Northern there.
The Piccadilly Line crosses over the Northern Line at the other end (i.e. the eastern end)... but it could be the explanation... The City & South London extension from Angel to Euston (May 1907) would have been under construction at the same time as the Piccadilly Line (December 1906) opening only 5 months apart. There is a big dip to the east of King's Cross Northern Line platforms too (where the Piccadilly line actually crosses), so perhaps these dips represented a last-minute lowering of the route of the Northern Line through King's Cross to avoid the Piccadilly Line route above. Presumably when construction began on the two lines what was going to happen when / if they met each other at King's Cross wasn't given full consideration and whoever got there first got the shallower / flatter route? The marked dips are probably either end of the station as platform roads are preferably level (old trains didn't have failsafe brakes so could potentially roll away).

I did a little reading, and there was indeed a signal box halfway between Angel and King's Cross at Weston Street... although I'm buggered if I can remember any sign of it other than the track gradient. I presume the track levels out adjacent to the box for the same reason that it's level through stations (in case of rolling), as you didn't want pre-Westinghouse and Parking Braked trains held on steep gradients for any length of time... Even the 1959 Stocks I used to drive on the Northern Line, which were built prior to the invention of spring-applied parking brakes, had handbrakes you had to wind on when you stabled them for the night, as well as wooden blocks (Scotch Blocks) to be inserted under the downhill-most wheels as well as a huge hook and chain (Rail anchor) which clamped around a running rail and hooked onto an eye by the coupler... Very archaic considering these trains persisted until the 21st Century (just!).
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Old October 19th, 2007, 08:25 PM   #1902
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Tubeman, have london underground got shot of all those platform vending machines? Im sure there was one on the holborn picc platform. Also havent noticed one in a while.
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Old October 19th, 2007, 11:14 PM   #1903
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Tubeman, the redevelopment plans at Camden Town, why do they have to knock down the original building AND several other heritage buildings beside the station, why not do what they did at Oxford Circus and build under the junction of the roads?

I heard the Central line's ATO was troublesome when first introduced... What happenned?

What is the point in stabling trains? Why not just leave them anywhere? Sounds silly I know

Thanks a lot

Last edited by iampuking; October 20th, 2007 at 03:55 AM.
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Old October 20th, 2007, 12:21 PM   #1904
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Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Tubeman, have london underground got shot of all those platform vending machines? Im sure there was one on the holborn picc platform. Also havent noticed one in a while.

Yeah not too sure, at one point there was a Cadbury's machine on every platform pretty much... I suspect Cadbury's might have deemed them more trouble than they were worth (servicing, restocking, compensation for eaten coins etc).
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Old October 20th, 2007, 12:37 PM   #1905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Tubeman, have london underground got shot of all those platform vending machines? Im sure there was one on the holborn picc platform. Also havent noticed one in a while.
I'm fairly certain they withdrew these after several caused fire alarms...? or maybe I'm just imagining that.

Urhghghgh... nothing worse than eating warm chocolate on a hot tube.
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Old October 21st, 2007, 01:47 AM   #1906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Tubeman, have london underground got shot of all those platform vending machines? Im sure there was one on the holborn picc platform. Also havent noticed one in a while.
There's been some discussion on this in the comments on an entry on the Going Underground Blog.
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Old October 21st, 2007, 12:23 PM   #1907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tubeman, the redevelopment plans at Camden Town, why do they have to knock down the original building AND several other heritage buildings beside the station, why not do what they did at Oxford Circus and build under the junction of the roads?

I heard the Central line's ATO was troublesome when first introduced... What happenned?

What is the point in stabling trains? Why not just leave them anywhere? Sounds silly I know

Thanks a lot
Hmmm I can't help and awful lot with the first two: I'm a bit confused by the current plans for Camden, but I'd be disappointed if the original building went, even if it is too cramped. Re: the Central Line, I suppose it's always going to pose problems introducing ATO to an already up-and-running conventional line: running two parallel systems for a while is bound to cause conflicts etc, an then it takes a while to iron out the glitches. I have a feeling the Victoria Line might experience similar difficulties, and the life-expired 1960's ATO will have to run in parallel with the new system for the 2007 Stock for some time while the new trains are introduced.

Re: stabling... If, for example, we just left a train in each platform overnight and didn't have depots / sidings then a driver not turning up for one of them would shut down the whole line as the line's essentially blocked. Also, it's much more practical to have all the trains concentrated in a couple of locations for the nightly checks, cleaning etc: If the maintainers and cleaners had to travel to scores of different locations, they'd never get the lot done in the 3 hour window they have. A few trains are outstabled in platforms nightly at a handful of locations, the only one I can think of off the top of my Head is Train 110 which stables at Richmond overnight to form the first departure ex-Richmond each morning (Train 6)... there might be others. This is because the nearest depot (Ealing Common) is nearly an hour away (train departs depot eastbound and can't be reversed back toward Richmond until West Kensington). This used to mean the first train ex-Richmond was relatively late compared to other branches, the outstabling practice means the first departure can be at a similar time to everywhere else.
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Old October 21st, 2007, 11:33 PM   #1908
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Quote:
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Hmmm I can't help and awful lot with the first two: I'm a bit confused by the current plans for Camden, but I'd be disappointed if the original building went, even if it is too cramped.
I agree with you. getting rid of the old station would be an awful shame, Leicester Square and Oxford Circus both have the original tiling, but the ticket hall is sub-surface.

And thanks a lot with the rest, I definately 'get' the sidings thing, with all the track replacements these days it makes more sense.
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Old October 22nd, 2007, 01:35 PM   #1909
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Tubeman - why is providing passenger info so difficult on some lines?

At Hammersmith it's nonsensical: "Cockfosters 2 mins. Next Arnos Grove train within 5 mins". And the westbound District line destinations only show up a minute before the train, so pointless. I understand they'd have to slightly estimate due to the Earls Court mess, but surely there could be a bit more info?

And along the H'smith and City line, you have those announcements rather than dot matrix screens. Again, Edgware Road complicates things but there could be an approximation.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 02:18 AM   #1910
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Tubeman, I can't resist, more questions!

-How come so many Yerkes tube stations have the platforms on the outside rather than an island platform?
-I know I touched on this before, quite a lot actually. But why was Oxford Circus re-tiled when it was only refurbished relatively recently?
-Do you think the original tiling remains underneath the metal cladding at Holborn and Embankment?
-Do you know if passengers approved of that horrid fluroscent lighting I showed earlier? Or do LU even give a damn what the passengers think!?
-Many sub surface stations had roofs like Earl's Court, Farringdon and Notting Hill Gate, am I right? Do you think the remaining ones will eventually end up being bulldozed and sold off?

Thanks a lot for being so patient with me!

Last edited by iampuking; October 23rd, 2007 at 02:30 AM.
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 04:34 AM   #1911
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Tubeman why does the service on the picc line from about wood green eastbound get so erratic from say about 8 onwards, if i come back that way after that time I tend to spend ages hangin around in wood green, bounds green etc platforms, not forgettin the the train stoppin in the tunnels like 4 times between stations.

Is it because it doesnt have that ATO ?
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Old October 23rd, 2007, 09:48 PM   #1912
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Why don't they put air con on the tube line trains? They say it's because the air has no where to disapate - but trains, on the whole, move and piston air around the system.

I think TFL is just trying to save money. I mean they don't put air con on the buses, DLR or Trams - all of which don't have this disapation issue.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:22 PM   #1913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tubeman, I can't resist, more questions!

-How come so many Yerkes tube stations have the platforms on the outside rather than an island platform?
Those are the stations below narrow roads where the platforms are stacked one above the other, the platforms are on the same side of the tracks as the lift shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-I know I touched on this before, quite a lot actually. But why was Oxford Circus re-tiled when it was only refurbished relatively recently?
Maybe a rush of blood to Metronet's head before it all went wrong? The tiling can't have been that old as there was a pretty serious fire there in the 1980's (no fatalities).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Do you think the original tiling remains underneath the metal cladding at Holborn and Embankment?
Most likely, I watched Knightsbridge's tiling being enveloped by the steel panels a couple of years back, and they do just mount the panels over the tiling... so yes it may well be hiding behind the enamel panels at those stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Do you know if passengers approved of that horrid fluroscent lighting I showed earlier? Or do LU even give a damn what the passengers think!?
They strongly disapproved, hence the usage on the prototype D Stock refurb and the stations which received the treatment (e.g. Lambeth North) will end up being 'it' in terms of the 'natural light' fluorescent tubes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Many sub surface stations had roofs like Earl's Court, Farringdon and Notting Hill Gate, am I right? Do you think the remaining ones will eventually end up being bulldozed and sold off?

Thanks a lot for being so patient with me!
Not so much Farringdon and Earl's Court, those are fairly unique structures, but Notting Hill gate is the best example of the standard arched roof which once spanned almost all of the original Metropolitan and District railway subsurface stations. Notable losses are King's Cross (where the Thameslink station is now), Gloucester Road and High Street Kensington which all had magnificent rooves spanning 4 tracks.

The remainder are listed without doubt so are here to stay... most of those we lost were during air raids.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:26 PM   #1914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Tubeman why does the service on the picc line from about wood green eastbound get so erratic from say about 8 onwards, if i come back that way after that time I tend to spend ages hangin around in wood green, bounds green etc platforms, not forgettin the the train stoppin in the tunnels like 4 times between stations.

Is it because it doesnt have that ATO ?
If its slow going E/B from Wood Green its due to blocking back into Arnos Grove (a crew relief point), crew relief points often cause this sort of disruption if the service is running late due to drivers being on short meal relief (they are entitled to a bare minimum between trains) or drivers being out of position (train turned back due to signal failure etc). Delays are caused trying to locate drivers or 'reform' (change) train numbers to match the drivers who are available.

Other than that I always found the Picc very frequent pretty much all day, so I can't explain why you'd experience such long headways.
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:34 PM   #1915
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Why don't they put air con on the tube line trains? They say it's because the air has no where to disapate - but trains, on the whole, move and piston air around the system.

I think TFL is just trying to save money. I mean they don't put air con on the buses, DLR or Trams - all of which don't have this disapation issue.
The heat dissipation is the issue on the Tube, but you'll be pleased to hear the SSR lines are getting air con on the S Stock, because these lines were originally steam traction there is ample ventilation in the tunnels to allow the heat to escape.

Think how hot the Bakerloo and Vic line tunnels / platforms are now: now imagine that with the exhaust heat from the trains' air con too. It would simply be unbearable. I quite like the idea of 'stored' air con where Tube trains freeze internal cooling blocks when above ground and vent the heat before passing air across the frozen blocks once underground to cool the carriages. This would be useless for the Victoria Line (all underground) and near-useless for the Bakerloo (most trips Queen's Park to Elephant, all underground bar Queen's Park), which are two hottest lines though.

Not getting air con on the hundreds of new buses is penny-pinching criminality, I agree. Not least becasue the Mercedes bendies no doubt come with air con as standard and it was left out for cost reasons, and so the windows provided are inadequate slits. They certainly don't mind having the heating blaring out for 9 months of the year however, even if its a pleasant Spring or Autumn day!
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Old October 24th, 2007, 09:38 PM   #1916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cle View Post
Tubeman - why is providing passenger info so difficult on some lines?

At Hammersmith it's nonsensical: "Cockfosters 2 mins. Next Arnos Grove train within 5 mins". And the westbound District line destinations only show up a minute before the train, so pointless. I understand they'd have to slightly estimate due to the Earls Court mess, but surely there could be a bit more info?

And along the H'smith and City line, you have those announcements rather than dot matrix screens. Again, Edgware Road complicates things but there could be an approximation.
I explained this somewhere way back in the deep recesses of this thread... It's to do with the fact that the District / Picc lines between Acton and Hammersmith are technically interchangeable and the dot matrices cannot know for definite where the next train is coming from (plus the first come / first serve signalling at Earl's Court).
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Old October 24th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #1917
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Thanks for the response
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Old October 26th, 2007, 01:15 AM   #1918
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I'm confused about two developments...

Victoria station upgrade: http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...n-upgrade.html I don't see how the plan will relieve overcrowding on the northbound Victoria line platforms, which is where the problem lies! What is the purpose of it exactly?

And this:http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...ngs-cross.html I don't actually get it... Is the tunnel going to be abadoned? Why is it temporary?

Also an unrelated question: Why wasn't Angel made with step free access when it was refurbished in the 90s? And why did they relocate the surface building and not build two escalators, twice the size, one could go up one way, and then a u-turn and up the other way, and hoorah you're at the same place as you'd be if you got lifts!

Last edited by iampuking; October 26th, 2007 at 01:21 AM.
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Old October 26th, 2007, 01:58 PM   #1919
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Tubeman, do you have any track layout diagrams of the LU? Or know anywhere some could be located? Likewise for NR?
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Old October 26th, 2007, 02:27 PM   #1920
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Quote:
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Tubeman, do you have any track layout diagrams of the LU? Or know anywhere some could be located? Likewise for NR?
http://www.trackmaps.co.uk/diagrams.htm
Book 5 includes LU.

Angel - Apart from anything else I suspect that there was a desire to serve the more active area of Upper Street and hence improve it even more rather than the 'dead' area of City Road. Probably mostly it was logistical, engineering and disruption reasons.

Last edited by Acemcbuller; October 26th, 2007 at 02:33 PM.
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