Canadian Military

[CanadianDemon]

Don't cherry there's plenty of articles explaining that the Arrow was cancelled because it was not profitable. Yes, it's advanced? Hell yea, it was. But jet's just like this were being designed at a much cheaper cost. It was too expensive and the Conservative government didn't feel like putting up with it so they cancelled it. It had nothing to do with the Us Government.

The American Government would've been PSYCHED if we could have made the Avro cheaper. However, due to the engine being made out of Titanium. Which was SUPER expensive back then. The costs skyrocketed.

As I said, and make sure you look at this closely, as I said.

We have the resources to create another "Avro Arrow" program. This time it could be even better! Stop looking in the past. Yes, it was a proud and saddening part of our history. I won't deny that. However, this is 2012 and we must start looking forward!

So stop focusing on that stupid Arrow and focus on a newer, better Aviation program.

[spearhead]

Originally Posted by CanadianDemon

Don't cherry there's plenty of articles explaining that the Arrow was cancelled because it was not profitable. Yes, it's advanced? Hell yea, it was. But jet's just like this were being designed at a much cheaper cost. It was too expensive and the Conservative government didn't feel like putting up with it so they cancelled it. It had nothing to do with the Us Government.

The American Government would've been PSYCHED if we could have made the Avro cheaper. However, due to the engine being made out of Titanium. Which was SUPER expensive back then. The costs skyrocketed.

As I said, and make sure you look at this closely, as I said.

We have the resources to create another "Avro Arrow" program. This time it could be even better! Stop looking in the past. Yes, it was a proud and saddening part of our history. I won't deny that. However, this is 2012 and we must start looking forward!

So stop focusing on that stupid Arrow and focus on a newer, better Aviation program.

I think it was you who have been focusing too much about the past history with all your comments. I was just answering your earlier comment about the Avro that we indeed blew up a chance and making a point. As it was expensive or not, it was the same thing, chances were there.

And are we in a some sort of a program to build an Avro II with an existing sources and materials? Do you have an evidence or any links leading to your so called "sources to create another Avro"? That's funny cuz we can't even come up with the right budget for the F35 program!

Yes of course i agree that we all have to move forward, and learn from the past.

[SO143]

2011

[spearhead]

Your previous post from another thread! Perhaps the biggest military boneyard in the world:

[SO143]

insane

[spearhead]

I knoh!

[CanadianDemon]

Spearhead, reread my damn comment. I said WE COULD recreate another "Avro Arrow" program.

North Bay and Montreal are working HARD to become a rootin'-tootin' shootin' Aviation based city.

Montreal has the advantage of being a HUGE CITY! North Bay has the advantage of a HUGE FREAKING AIRPORT and an Airforce Base!

They also developed an Aviation Industrial Park and they've got Graduates ready in Canadore College.

This all expanded into an argument of the past because you said that we blew our chances when we never did.

Cheesus Mrist!

[spearhead]

[SO143]

canada still makes some of the world's finest aircraft for eg Raytheon Sentinel (Battlefield surveillance aircraft) produced by Bombardier Global Express

[spearhead]

Originally Posted by SO143

2011

Japan had just removed their export restrictions for their military assets, and recently been reported that they were donating a couple of patrol vessels to the philippines to help them patrol the West Philippine Sea to catch all those illegal chinese poachers.

Meanwhile, canadian defense contractor General Dynamics have signed with the philippine government to build an advance ammo development facility for small arms/weapons.

[spearhead]

Originally Posted by SO143

canada still makes some of the world's finest aircraft for eg Raytheon Sentinel (Battlefield surveillance aircraft) produced by Bombardier Global Express

Indeed.

[CanadianDemon]

Originally Posted by spearhead

Explain how it is, nuts? you seem to be making claims without any evidence to support othwerwise.

[spearhead]

Originally Posted by CanadianDemon

Explain how it is, nuts? you seem to be making claims without any evidence to support othwerwise.

Why are you asking for my evidence when i was just reacting to your hipfiring?

What claims, the US behind the Avro project cancelation?

http://www.avroarrow.org/Cancellation.htm

THIS IS WHO CANCELLED THE AVRO ARROW, and
Why the Avro Arrow Project was Cancelled!!
Finally the question has been answered!
American tactics relating to Arrow cancellation based on the research of RL Whitcomb.

Copyright 2004 (Feel free to distribute this, but with credit).
THE CURTISS-WRIGHT J-67 ENGINE FOR THE ARROW

In the 1940s and early 1950s the British were far ahead of the Americans in jet-engine design. Armstrong Siddeley Motors, a member of the Hawker Siddeley Group, produced several axial-flow jet engines which were license-produced by US manufacturers, especially for US Navy use where they were probably more British engines flying than American.

The Bristol aircraft company was also, like Hawker Siddeley and Avro Canada, one of the few manufacturers producing both engines and aircraft, although they were forced, by the British government, to abandon aircraft and concentrate on engines, after the enormous Bristol Brabazon was cancelled. They too, through the genius of Stanley Hooker and Charles Grinyer and others, were producing jet engines and turboprop engines in the early 1950s. Grinyer, who later came to Avro Gas Turbines/Orenda Engines Ltd., was responsible for the successful type-test certification of 10 engines at Bristol, all on the first attempt. An unheard of feat. One of the engines he certified was the Bristol Olympus, a large capacity engine which, in my statistical analysis, was the second best engine in the world after the Iroquois, and after Iroquois cancellation, probably the best high-thrust turbojet in the World until at least the 1980s. Not a bad run for an engine that first ran in the early 1950s.

The Americans were very keen on this engine at first, and had Curtis-Wright embark on developing an afterburning license-built version of the Olympus. It was slated to go into a variety of US aircraft at the time, including the F-106, the XF-103, and, I believe, the F-108.

The interesting thing is, it is “rumoured” that the J-75 was simply their old J-57 from behind the compressor to the nozzle, and used, essentially, the J-67 (or Olympus) compressor section. It seems reasonable to assume that, if not the original intent, “acquiring” Olympus technology for American manufacturers became the end result.

Most US sources claim the J-67 was abandoned in 1955. Yet development of the XF-103, which used the J-67 and an intriguing bypass ramjet design that at high speed bypassed the main engine and dumped ram-compressed air into the afterburner section of the J-67.

Mysterious stuff. One wonders if Avro was told the engine was cancelled in 1955 was intended to cast doubt on the Arrow program.

You said,

Originally Posted by CandianDemon

On what!? A shitty, overhyped, not profitable jet that's about 50 years old? Who the hell cares!?

Thank god we blew our chances on that pile of crap.

[CanadianDemon]

Whatever. My point was that we didn't blow our chance to become a world player in Aviation.

[spearhead]

Hipfiring blindly not good.

BTW, did you even care to read the whole article? Click the link.

[Oaronuviss]

Thank you spearhead for getting across to Mr. Demon...
Or at least trying to.

He has visions of a Canada that is not, but could have been.

I think Sudbury has Canafied your mind a little more than average CanadianDemon.
Canada was getting great, and can be greater still, but until we grow a pair of nuts and take the world on instead of seeing if it's okay with the Americans, or making poor choices with our money, Canada will remain the little guy who tags along with all the other powerhouses.

We are rich because we are interconnected with the United States of America. No one can deny that. But we need to forge our own destiny starting today.

[CanadianDemon]

Originally Posted by spearhead

Hipfiring blindly not good.

BTW, did you even care to read the whole article? Click the link.

Yes, I read it. Don't worry. I'm still just saying we haven't blew our chance to be a world player in aviation.

[CanadianDemon]

OMG! You people aren't getting me at all! You're acting like there's a 0% chance of being a world player in Aviation. We have two cities that are good to go. We just need to invest more in those cities and we could expect some serious ROI.

Jesus Almighty! What do you people think. Oaron, I think Windsor's automobile decline has stabbed a bit too much downer syndrome in your blood and brain.

[Oaronuviss]

Originally Posted by CanadianDemon

OMG! You people aren't getting me at all! You're acting like there's a 0% chance of being a world player in Aviation. We have two cities that are good to go. We just need to invest more in those cities and we could expect some serious ROI.

Jesus Almighty! What do you people think. Oaron, I think Windsor's automobile decline has stabbed a bit too much downer syndrome in your blood and brain.

Nah, Windsor is on the up and up. especially Chryslers.

But that's besides the point, I agree Canada can be a leader in aviation again, we just gotta get smart! That's the only thing holding us back. Smart decisions! Our government makes ZERO.

[spearhead]

Originally Posted by CanadianDemon

Yes, I read it. Don't worry. I'm still just saying we haven't blew our chance to be a world player in aviation.

Whatever smartboy.

3) Once the Arrow started flying however, some US authorities, politicians especially, started telling Canada that bombers were on the way out and ICBMs were going to pretty much completely replace them, making the Arrow obsolete about half way through its expected life span. (Their representations stated the F-108 would do the same thing.) This was forced into the consciousness of Minister of Defence Pearkes and Finance Minister Fleming during their visit to NORAD HQ in April 1958.) Some British politicians particularly were reinforcing this view. By 1956 the leaders of the Canadian Army were totally opposed to the Arrow and were totally sold on missiles. When asked which missile however, they had no answer. They also had no answer on how they were to tell if an intruder was really an intruder or an airliner off course. They also had no answer on how they would defeat flood and carcinatron jamming, which the Soviets were known to already possess.

4) Once it was clear that the US would not purchase any Arrow version, the Canadian government decided it could not afford SAGE, Bomarc, AND the Arrow. They asked the United States what they would do if Canada didn't buy the BOMARC, and were told that the US would site their own, along the US Canadian border. This meant that nuclear ground to air missiles would be detonating over Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City, among others, in the case of a Soviet attack. Once Canada bought the BOMARC however, the USA sited BOMARCS along the Canadian border with Ontario and Quebec anyway if my sources are correct. (Need to verify this, although it isn't really relevant.)

5) So in July 1958 Minister of Defence Pearkes went to Washington to try the charity angle. They hoped to get the Americans to fund part of the Arrow programme under the NORAD agreement and told the Americans that we couldn't afford Arrows, SAGE and BOMARC, and asked for a hand out. They were told that Canada producing the Arrow by themselves, plus its engine by themselves, plus its radar/fire control system themselves, plus its fire and forget missile themselves, itself totally went against the joint defence concepts of NORAD. In other words, if Canada wanted assistance in defence funding, it should show goodwill by cancelling the Arrow and helping fund American programme's and equipping with the result. They also appear to have pointed out that there was no way Avro would get any American contracts because the technology would find its way to Britain through the Hawker Siddeley Group. With this food for thought hot and on the table, the Americans then proposed a Defence Production Sharing Agreement with Canada.
--------------------------


4) During those meetings John Foster Dulles, when again told Canada felt it needed interceptors, said that he could make available some intelligence which might prove Canada actually didn’t need interceptors. His brother, Allen Dulles, ran the CIA at the time. So, while NORAD and other defence experts were convinced that the Soviets had between 1,000 and 2,000 intercontinental bombers, he told Pearkes that the Soviets only actually had 160, based on U-2 overflights. While the figure of 2,000 bombers was absurdly high, 160 seems absurdly low. In fact in Congressional hearings on air defence in the United States, held coincidentally shortly after the Arrow cancellation, (8 months later) NORAD CINC Earl Partridge and USAF General White said that the only way the Soviets had, and for years hence would have, of attacking North America with their fleet of between 1,000 and 2,000 intercontinental bombers. One is left wondering why the CIA wouldn’t share such intelligence with the CINC NORAD if they believed it to be true. Unless, of course, they wanted to fuel the arms race.

OF COURSE, it didn’t dawn on the Conservatives that if they didn’t need the Arrow, then they certainly didn’t need the BOMARC, and also didn’t need SAGE.

5) Between August 1958 and Black Friday, a staggering variety of cost sharing and defence sharing offers were made back and forth. USAF Colonel Daniel C. Murray, who was attached to Avro for the saucer program, stated to Les Wilkinson, one of the Arrowhead authors, that after the F-106C was cancelled, that Canada was offered a defence production sharing deal on the F-108. Murray stated that Canada accepted the offer and then cancelled the Arrow. I cannot find corroboration of that in the Cabinet minutes, but that doesn’t mean much, believe me. There is a passage however, from three days after they cancelled the Arrow, that might be the item in question. In Cabinet minutes dated February 23rd, 1959, a single day before the government planned to announce “a large defence production sharing order for Canadiar radar picket aircraft, (CL-44s)” the Canadian government was told by the United States that this order would not happen “because American manufacturers would not stand for it.” I also checked to see if the United States bought any radar picket aircraft at the time (the role was being filled by a Lockheed Constellation variant at that time) or shortly after and they did not. During the run-up to cancellation the United States also offered to relocate some of their Western BOMARC sites North in to Canada. After the Arrow was cancelled, the US reneged on this offer by stating that the BOMARC was obsolete and that the US was not equipping with any more of them, and that Canada needed to buy interceptors. Let me just say that from my research, it appears that virtually everything Canada was promised at that time was reneged on once the Arrow was gone.

http://www.avroarrow.org/Cancellation.htm