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Supertalls Discussions of projects under construction between 300-599m/1,000-1,999ft tall.
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #2621
PDC1987
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Originally Posted by sgroutage View Post
It strikes me that the IBC is just a vanity project. Moscow builds a few skyscrapers to try and compete with the likes of London, Frankfurt and New York, but there is no substance to the development
As if London and Frankfurt are in the same league as NYC.

Over the next five years 7 or 8 new supertalls will be U/C in NYC, and dozens more that are 250 meters+ tall.
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #2622
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My argument is that Moscow will not be able attract enough tenants in order to do this. Read between the lines.
The list of largest tenants in the Naberezhnaya Towers:
IBM (USA)
General Electric (USA)
Symantec (USA)
Citibank (USA)
Nortel Networks (Canada)
Bunge Limited (USA)
Standard Bank (South Africa)
KPMG (Netherlands)
Oracle Corporation (USA)
Toshiba Corporation (Japan)
Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation (Japan)
E.ON AG (Germany)
Lucent Technologies (USA)
Medtronic (USA)
Becton Dickinson (USA)
+ many other Russian bank and enterprises
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #2623
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Oh dear, i must be really confused! There was i thinking that architecture was about the art or practice of designing and constructing buildings.

What must i be thinking?
So, this discussion includes not only architectural and art issues, also lots of technical issues
and development technologies
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #2624
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It's true example of rationalism, and at least it looks completed.

Which one is better?
Speaking about architecture, Docklands is a group of ordinary skyscrapers of the simple form. For me, IBC is more better in this sence. And yes, Docklands look more completed.
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #2625
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:36 PM   #2626
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Speaking about architecture, Docklands is a group of ordinary skyscrapers of the simple form. For me, IBC is more better in this sence. And yes, Docklands look more completed.
But sense is that there's some centrain order and rationalism in Docklands, even though buildings themselves look ordinary

But Moscow IBC is rather chaotic, as all Moscow, since its founding (i dont say it's bad, its part of identity)
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #2627
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Who is actually raging?

Calm yourself!
I guess I wasn't clear enough. My bad.

You made your point by calling IBC cheap and tacky. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but arguing about skyscraper's design in such clusters is about as useless as arguing on the internet in general. The majority of modern European and American skyscrapers' designs, including those in Moscow's IBC, Madrid's IBC, new towers in London, new WTC and other top-notch developments in NY and Chicago like Beekman Tower, is made by 50 or so multinational corporations (Skidmore Owings & Merrill, Foster + Partners, NBBJ, you name it). They are more or less the same in terms of engineering, eco-friendly branding, space planning etc. all being hiqh quality productions. In other words, you are not going to provoke a meaningful discussion with that kind of arguments unless you are engineer - and you don't sound like one.

Your second point concerned few people present at Moscow's IBC. Well, if you spend five pages arguing about this area you might as well get a minute to look at a general plan of the area (see the almighty Wikipedia or first page of this topic, although latter I believe is outdated). Basically, IBC is complete just for about 50% or so by now with several towers being either on hold or at ground level stage. And even in the towers that are visually complete there are still interior works going on (Capital City towers). So, basically, this area is just a big construction site and will remain in this status for another 3-5 years, or more. Do you honestly believe the construction site with half projects still behind fences is going to be a mass attraction? It lacks public space, too, but the square is under construction near Evolution tower. What IBC really needs is a park nearby, but with the cost of land there's no hope for it.

Your last point is 'IBC was developed in order to rival London as a major business and financial centre' which clearly bothers you for some reason. It shouldn't: Moscow's towers may beat the hell out of Canary Wharf's boxes in terms of looking futuristic, but Russia hasn't got economy strong enough to rival London, New York or Shanghai in terms of financial gravity force. l'm content with Moscow being Eastern Europe's (and Central Europe's in future) financial centre.

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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #2628
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I guess I wasn't clear enough. My bad.

You made your point by calling IBC cheap and tacky. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but arguing about skyscraper's design in such clusters is about as useless as arguing on the internet in general. The majority of modern European and American skyscrapers' designs, including those in Moscow's IBC, Madrid's IBC, new towers in London, new WTC and other top-notch developments in NY and Chicago like Beekman Tower, is made by 50 or so multinational corporations (Skidmore Owings & Merrill, Foster + Partners, NBBJ, you name it). They are more or less the same in terms of engineering, eco-friendly branding, space planning etc. all being hiqh quality productions. In other words, you are not going to provoke a meaningful discussion with that kind of arguments unless you are engineer - and you don't sound like one.

Your second point concerned few people present at Moscow's IBC. Well, if you spend five pages arguing about this area you might as well get a minute to look at a general plan of the area (see the allmighty Wikipedia or first page of this topic, although latter I believe is outdated). Basically, IBC is complete just for about 50% or so by now with several towers being either on hold or at ground level stage. And even in the towers that are visually complete there are still interior works going on (Capital City towers). So, basically, this area is just a big construction site and will remain in this status for another 3-5 years, or more. Do you honestly believe the construction site with half projects still behind fences is going to be a mass attraction? It lacks public space, too, but the square is under construction near Evolution tower. What IBC really needs is a park nearby, but with the cost of land there's no hope for it.

Your last point is 'IBC was developed in order to rival London as a major business and financial centre' which clearly bothers you for some reason. It shouldn't: Moscow's towers may beat the hell out of Canary Wharf's boxes in terms of looking futuristic, but Russia hasn't got economy strong enough to rival London, New York or Shanghai in terms of financial gravity force. l'm content with Moscow being Eastern Europe's (and Central Europe's in future) financial centre.
Yeah, youre absolutely right

Take that, british patriot!
[trollface]

Those buildings are designed by those who designed buildings in London, Barcelona, major european cities
(though i still dont like Imperia Tower and Mercury)

And all your previous posts now seems to be useless, logically....
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #2629
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #2630
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So, we tried to tell you that Moscow IBC is still not completed thats why it looks not so nice as it should be
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:48 PM   #2631
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:49 PM   #2632
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I guess I wasn't clear enough. My bad.

it lacks public space, too, but the square is under construction near Evolution tower. What IBC really needs is a park nearby, but with the cost of land there's no hope for it.
So, Botanic Garden is near Moscow IBC, there must be a pedestrian bridge between botanic garden and IBC

But unfortunately, there's still no any transport connection
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #2633
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No, they are not useless, and please dont call me a patriot! Aargh!!

Architects design buildings based on a brief, and then plans usually get submitted to planning officers, who in most cities influence the design enormously.

Im entitled to argue the merit of individual designs of buildings and to discuss the overall planned vision of the development. You yourself have argued that you dont like a number of the designs! Im entitled to do the same.

Some of your other comments are very childish and immature, you really should grow up! (unless you are in fact a teenager, as i suspect!)
Sorry, sorry.... some of my comments were useless, i recognize that.

especially previous one "take that, british patriot" is chidrish
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #2634
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As if London and Frankfurt are in the same league as NYC.

Over the next five years 7 or 8 new supertalls will be U/C in NYC, and dozens more that are 250 meters+ tall.
Have you ever been to London? Have you recently been to London? Yes or no? Just out of curiosity...
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #2635
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No, they are not useless, and please dont call me a patriot! Aargh!!

Architects design buildings based on a brief, and then plans usually get submitted to planning officers, who in most cities influence the design enormously.

Im entitled to argue the merit of individual designs of buildings and to discuss the overall planned vision of the development. You yourself have argued that you dont like a number of the designs! Im entitled to do the same.

Some of your other comments are very childish and immature, you really should grow up! (unless you are in fact a teenager, as i suspect!)
And yes, dont forget about some wild capitalism financial system here
And clients rather care how fast will his(or some group of clients) buiding completed,
in most cases developers rather care about commercial interest, not aesthetics
(and the fact that oh, it was designed by famous architect!!!)

so, they change it, try to save money(oh, bloody greedy business interest), by building them by not-eco materials, low-quality materials
First projects of Mercury City looked alright, not seems its not, it was true disappoinment

But as previously mentioned, Moscow is not world's financial centre as London, and so on....

Fortunately, there's some number of exclusions, and we see that some buildings are masterpiecrs
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Old November 13th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #2636
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Old November 13th, 2011, 08:01 PM   #2637
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I can show u some rare examples of good architecture in Moscow, of course, in Pm?
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Old November 13th, 2011, 08:04 PM   #2638
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Im not really sure if your rationale is correct, but it sounds like you are agreeing with my original points about the standard and quality of some (not all) of the buildings.
So, Russia is not the country of the West, btw

At least, it's good attempt to create financial centre of Eastern Europe
(so, some Estonian and Lithuanian buildings can be better than that, but tho)
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Old November 13th, 2011, 08:06 PM   #2639
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Originally Posted by PDC1987 View Post
As if London and Frankfurt are in the same league as NYC.
In terms of what? Skyscrapers, prestige, wealth, financial kudos? No matter how smugly you presume that NYC still rules over America, it certainly ain't ruling over the world anymore.

Quote:
Over the next five years 7 or 8 new supertalls will be U/C in NYC, and dozens more that are 250 meters+ tall.
Wishful thinking...
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Old November 13th, 2011, 08:13 PM   #2640
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At least, American and British/European Architecture are 2 different things

Unfortunately, Americans have no any aesthetics(if there's good example of architecture, it means that they were designed by British Architects, and some rare examples), most of buildings look same , and cladding looks weird (so, I like 30s-50s buildings, but not all)
Maybe modern buildings are eco-friendly and modern , but they may be ugly though

And really, Moscow reminds me of the US sometimes, and St.Petersburg reminds me of Britain. (Rainy and wet climate, architecture is rather similar, and it's really really lovely, wide Neva river, Finnish Gulf, ooh )

At least, for whole the world, Moscow IBC is a good attempt to create financial centre, at least it's better than buildings in Manila, Caracas and Sao Paulo
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