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Old July 17th, 2009, 01:28 AM   #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVentz View Post
Most of them are near suburbs — on Moscow Automobile Ring Road. But they can not be placed too far away from houses because they are connected with any building in the city by the pipes with hot drinking water and pipes with extremely hot water for the central heating (using in winter). No one will build 100 km long hot water pipe.
KVentz, what you say is true. However

1. 100 km is irrelevant number (you could as well say 1000 km). If you said 10km, it would be more like it (maybe it was a typo). In reality, the same two chimneys placed about 5 km further into suburbs from city center would not dominate Moscow skyline as these pipes do.

2. There are engineering solutions that in principle allow burning gas with much less prominent chimeys. They are more expensive. Eventually these pipes (as well as huge cooling towers that many people mistake for nuclear plants) will have to be replaced.

3. One solution to removing these chimneys is changing infrastructure of central Moscow heating. Instead of using one big plant near the center for hot water and heating steam, natural gas can be supplied to individual buildings and small local boilers would be used. Electricity generated by this CHP plant can also be brought from several km away, not a huge problem.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 05:25 AM   #982
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They are more expensive.
More expensive, less effective, more pollution. And all this for what? For anm who will admire better skyline.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 06:28 AM   #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
God gracious... does anyone here actually READS the comment or only writes them?
It has been stated 100s of times hat those have nothing to do with industry, in fat those are symbol of Moscow being the place for crowds as they are a part of central heating for residential sector!

It also sad to see how ignorance is made into something some d..a.. trying to be proud of... I don't know anything about this or that... but.. you know if you don't then you should learn before you open mouth or start typing.. and them you have pass the judgment...

BTW here in Helsinki we have same chimneys too as we also have same central heating system. And we have it because it is the most efficient in our northern climate!
A ya-to dumal, chto zhe eto za truby takie! Spasibo tebe, psevdofinskiy drug.
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Old July 17th, 2009, 06:32 AM   #984
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Originally Posted by UrbanO! View Post
+1

Yeah! Those ugly chimneys make me sick .
literally
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Old July 18th, 2009, 01:49 AM   #985
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Originally Posted by KVentz View Post
Most of them are near suburbs — on Moscow Automobile Ring Road. But they can not be placed too far away from houses because they are connected with any building in the city by the pipes with hot drinking water and pipes with extremely hot water for the central heating (using in winter). No one will build 100 km long hot water pipe.
Why can Europe do it ? Moscow is the richest city in the world and can't resolve to remove some ugly chimneys?

Last edited by ruslan33; July 18th, 2009 at 06:22 PM.
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Old July 18th, 2009, 03:17 AM   #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVentz View Post
More expensive, less effective, more pollution. And all this for what? For anm who will admire better skyline.
"less effective" - this is probably already captured by "more expensive"

more pollution - not true; it can be dealt with effectively at some expense

If this plant burns natural gas, the exhaust is relatively clean anyway (comparing to burning coal, which I hope is not the case here). Many people have natural gas stove in their kitchen, it is relatively harmless.

I grew up with them there and will survive if they stay where they are.

IMO, they do damage to the image of the city. I would not removing them immedeately for aesthetic purpose alone, but since any infrastructure, including this plant, requires replacement at some point, I would think it could be done sooner or later.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 06:53 AM   #987
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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:18 PM   #988
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17.07.09

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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:22 PM   #989
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mix of old and new moscow, cant wait to the federation tower's spire to rise high!
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 12:01 AM   #990
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 01:30 AM   #991
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This skyline will become in one of the greatest.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:20 PM   #992
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 03:23 PM   #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruslan33 View Post
Why can Europe do it ?
Because Europe do not have -20 C in winter and does not have to heat homes from October to April. Moscow is not Paris and here is no roses in January. Capitals in cold climate in Europe, such as Helsinki has the CHPs too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anm View Post
"less effective" - this is probably already captured by "more expensive"
Less effective means smaller effect for bigger money.

Quote:
more pollution - not true;
No, it's true. Less effective system means that you must burn more fuel to get the same effect. More fuel burned - more pollution made. More CO2, CO, more global warming effect.

Quote:
Many people have natural gas stove in their kitchen, it is relatively harmless.
Think about the values in your kitchen and in a power plant.

Quote:
IMO, they do damage to the image of the city.
I don't care about the image if I have warm home with hot water, electricity and this all does not cost all my salary.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 03:41 PM   #994
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Eloquent.

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Old July 23rd, 2009, 10:53 PM   #995
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Old July 24th, 2009, 05:46 AM   #996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVentz View Post
Less effective means smaller effect for bigger money.
We agree on this, but without numbers it is worless to continue here.

Quote:
No, it's true. Less effective system means that you must burn more fuel to get the same effect. More fuel burned - more pollution made. More CO2, CO, more global warming effect.
1. not start new topic here, but global warming is fiction (politically motivated BS)
2.CO2 has no effect on climate
3. CO is a toxic pollutant of concern but fortunately, when natural gas is burnt properly (adequte supply of O2), little of it is formed

Just FYI, I have a degree in Environmental Engineering and a degree in Atmospheric Chemistry (in addition to PH.D in Physical Chemistry). I am not bragging about it, but I know what I am talking about.

Quote:
Think about the values in your kitchen and in a power plant.
In a kitchen nothing is cleaned before it mixes with air one breaths, everything is released right where the person is. At a plant various soulutions for absorbing pollutants can be used before exhaust reaches the end of a pipe.

Quote:
I don't care about the image if I have warm home with hot water, electricity and this all does not cost all my salary.
Indeed, I noticed that you do not care. You do not have to repeat this.

The question here is not about changing this infrastructure in the whole city of Moscow (let alone whole Russia), but about using alternative solutions to heating of some selected downtown Moscow neigbourhoods. Several smaller power generators in the area with less prominent pipes could work.

Also, electricity and heat are used in Russsia (and Moscow) so wastefully, that implementing energy-saving measures already used in other countries that import natural gas would probably solve most of the problem.

I think the biggest problem here is that although removing these pipes would be in the public interest in the long run, no particular oligarch would profit from implementing this change in the short run. Thus, there is no motivation among those who control investment decisions.
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Last edited by anm; July 24th, 2009 at 06:02 AM.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 03:55 PM   #997
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Originally Posted by anm View Post
Indeed, I noticed that you do not care. You do not have to repeat this.

The question here is not about changing this infrastructure in the whole city of Moscow (let alone whole Russia), but about using alternative solutions to heating of some selected downtown Moscow neigbourhoods. Several smaller power generators in the area with less prominent pipes could work.

Also, electricity and heat are used in Russsia (and Moscow) so wastefully, that implementing energy-saving measures already used in other countries that import natural gas would probably solve most of the problem.

I think the biggest problem here is that although removing these pipes would be in the public interest in the long run, no particular oligarch would profit from implementing this change in the short run. Thus, there is no motivation among those who control investment decisions.
That is the problem in Russia. Russia is wasting too much of it's energy resources while it could use that in energy by using energy saving measures.
In Russia money comes in first place, building companies want to make fast money with fast and cheap building. The city goverment of Moscow could install some more modern equipped power heat stations outside the city. But of course this cost too much for Luhzkov and he's oligarch friends. Luzhkov lives in Rublovka. If he had an appartment with outlook from he's window to those ugly pipes/chimneys he would proberly remove those things
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Old July 25th, 2009, 12:45 AM   #998
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by Boch;

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Old July 25th, 2009, 02:41 AM   #999
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Originally Posted by anm View Post
We agree on this, but without numbers it is worless to continue here.



1. not start new topic here, but global warming is fiction (politically motivated BS)
2.CO2 has no effect on climate
3. CO is a toxic pollutant of concern but fortunately, when natural gas is burnt properly (adequte supply of O2), little of it is formed

Just FYI, I have a degree in Environmental Engineering and a degree in Atmospheric Chemistry (in addition to PH.D in Physical Chemistry). I am not bragging about it, but I know what I am talking about.

Whilst I do not neccessarely agree that CO2 has no effect on climate. I do think that its role is not only overplayed, but the conclusions which are thrown around are dubious and far too simplified, and its role really when push comes to shove is badly understood. Not least because historically climate (and other factors) has affected CO2 levels, not vice versa. But also due to a bad understanding of many major factors in climate (such as the heliospheres affect on the charged cosmic particles which are needed for clouds to be able to form, as well as more important greenhouse gases like water fumes).

More importantly though there are countless other environmental dangers (overpopulation, fragmentation, deforestation and other habitat loss, pollutants (poisons etc), an increasing number of different chemicals in the environment whose combined effects are unpredicted and not know often until bad things happen, poaching, artificial greenhouse gases which do not otherwise appear, and for which there is no ongoing circulation and thus they stay in the atmosphere for hundreds of thousands of years, unlike CO2 which has a short turnaround period and so forth) which are way more serious to the biosphere, which are responsible for the vast majority of natural devastation (not climate change!), but are getting in the shade of the climate change alarmism, which often reaches ridiculous heights (at once in this very forum one user said that I was crazy to talk about CO2 levels historically and that they and the temperatures have never been higher than today, absolutely insane a proposition but this user did not spare on the words in attacking me based on this total bunch of nonsense...). Whereas in the real world not only are they a marginal issue in our (in this case hypotethical) affect on the biosphere, but they have beneficial effects as well in helping vegetation grow.

What got me when I first read the post you replied to but which I didnt at the moment, but now that it is brought up I as well may, is that CO2 is called a pollutant. That is likely one of the most ridiculous things that has ever appeared in any environmental discussion, yet this is widespread lingo. Consider this; a gas which is absolutely crucial for life as we know it and without which the biosphere would die on the planet, is a "pollutant". Insane. Where do people get these things? I to believe we should aim to affect the place we live minimally, practice ecologyl, but CO2 is not in any way a pollutant. It is an integrated part of the atmosphere around which life is built, which has historically been at levels over 20 times that of today (looking back throught time to the cenozoic), and which about 100-150 years ago was at its lowest levels ever during the past 600 million years.

Not to talk about that this as you said, is used for political motivations, relevant to this; often in environmental issues where the results of those different "programs" themself hurt nature more and more directly than CO2 ever could. Basically they are almost all based on increasing experimentation with the environment rather than just trying to lessen impact thereon.

That not saying that anthropologicly affected climate (beside natural constant climate changes, forming of lakes, disappearance of old ones etc) is not something to avoid, altough its nature is not easy to understand especially since it became public that the warmest year in the 20th century was in the 30's (this may or may not be relevant though, it can be warming naturally). Fast changes in climate can hurt the biosphere, that is one of the reason why a truly wealthy biosphere is important. These different (not only climatic) changes happen in any case, and to simplify the implications; the healthier biosphere the more opportunities for it (for life that is) to survive such changes. But the biosphere itself is hurt today by factors already mentioned, and climate change is not one of them.

Im am impressed that you have went through those particular educations without becoming one advocator of this kind of alarmism, but what do I know, maybe that is just if you make a living of it. It may be so that it is rather people who do not study these issues who are the ones who are worried about it. I am just a physics student at present so I cannot back what I write with such credentials as you can.

Personally, I do not have any big issue with these plants in Moscow. There are many other things that could be done to improve Moscow further. I think it has been a bit exaggerated here. However, one can speculate on what seems the long-term best thing. So to a large degree I agree with KVentz even if I dont agree with calling CO2 a pollutant. At the same time I do not doubt ruslan33 in that private and general public interests clash, and this can be an issue because private enterprise cannot be allowed to do what they want to even if its not in the interest of the public affected by it (on the other hand the public institutions cannot be allowed to do what they want either).

Does anyone have any info on how the interior work is progressing?

P.S. What is "global warming effect"? Never heard that one before. I thought it was called greenhouse effect. Haha; global warming effect, what a manipulative and misleading term. Did they use that on television yet?
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Old July 25th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #1000
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Also, electricity and heat are used in Russsia (and Moscow) so wastefully, that implementing energy-saving measures already used in other countries that import natural gas would probably solve most of the problem.
This problem is solving in Moscow. Almost all old 5-floor panel buildings with poor thermal protection were demolished. Repairable series of 9-floor houses with poor thermal protection are warmed, old windows are changed to tight double-glazed ones. All new buildings already have them. An I have only two incandescent lamps at home: in the refrigerator and the oven. All other are luminescent and I think about diodes. Do I use electricity wastefully?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruslan33 View Post
The city goverment of Moscow could install some more modern equipped power heat stations outside the city.
You can transport electricity on distance of 100 kilometres but you can not do this with hot water. You have to heat it locally, near the consumption. So, if you move CHPs outside the city you can not use the benefits of CHP at all, you can use them only as ordinary thermal power station wasting all 'superfluous' energy of hot water. And you must heat water and warm houses using more power from other sources.

OK, I'll try to explain it easier. You want to have:

1 unit of electricity,
1 unit of hot drinking water and
1 unit of hot water for warming houses.

You build the CHP in the city and you have all of them at once. You have one CHP producing:

1 unit of electricity,
1 unit of hot drinking water and
1 unit of hot water for warming houses.

Now you say: what an ugly pipes, I don't like them! You decided to move power station outside the city. In gives you 1 unit of electricity and nothing more. Nothing. But you need hot water! 2 units of it! How will you get them? You don't like pipes, so you should use the electricity. But you have only one unit of it an you already use it. So, you must build more powerful power station, three times more powerfull. Three times more dirty. And now you are producing:

3 units (!!!) of electricity,
1 unit of hot drinking water and
1 unit of hot water for warming houses.

And you are still use only:

1 unit of electricity,
1 unit of hot drinking water and
1 unit of hot water for warming houses.

2 units of electricity power are wasting just because you don't like pipes. I don't think anyone outside this thread doesn't like pipes so much. Hopefully people who make decisions have brains.
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