Orlando...a big city

[SDK4]

But you have to take into account how big Orlando's DT area is to Miami's .

[Lakelander]

Wow, I had no idea Jax had that much more office space in downtown, then the others and so little in the burbs (compared to the rest). I guess this city is a little more centralized then the average person thinks.

[Jasonhouse]

^That has been discussed before...

Something like 25% of Jax's office space is DT... This compares to a metro like Tampa, where ~10% of the regional office space is in DT Tampa, and even Westshore has only like ~14%.

The 'bad' part for Jax, if I recall is that 15 years ago, over 40% of Jax's office space was DT.

[Lakelander]

That would make sense. Most of the large office complexes on the Southside have been since the late 80s. With older downtown office buildings being renovated into lofts and condos, I'd expect the number will continue to fall.

[O-town]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

All I was trying to say is that while Orlando's DT is in fact bigger than DT Tampa's, that doesn't mean that public opinion/perception will be that Orlando's skyline is bigger, better or whatever it is that O-town is trying to assert about Orlando over Tampa, as if it's some irrefutible fact that everyone knows about... IMO, they both basically suck, just for different reasons.

Why people like O-Town and I-275westcoast are trying to turn this thread into a kiddie pissing match is beyond me.

I don't really care about public perception, even though I disagree with your view completely. I'm pretty sure most people, who don't know anything about the cities in question, would generally assume that a city with a larger skyline is the larger city. And when I say larger, I mean larger. Not taller. A two hundred foot difference doesn't make that much of an impact if you ask me.

And this has nothing to do with a "pissing match". I corrected him with a fact, plain and simple.

[Jahi98]

I think Orlando did have something to do with the routing of I-4, considering it's the only other city besides Tampa where I-4 runs through the historic center of the city, unlike places like Lakeland and Plant City where it runs along the outskirts or Daytona Beach where it terminates outside the city. It must've been considered a city of consequence even during the construction of the interestate highway. Either it was more important than those others, or the city's leaders wanted the interstate to run through the center of town to encourage growth. Even with that, I don't think most of the decision-makers in that area thought the place would grow so fast. Else, the urban planning would reflect that.

[jvance75]

im sure it did, orlando was the center of the citrus industry? maybe a connection to move out the products on either side of the coast...

[Lakelander]

I believe Orlando and Lakeland were the only cities in Central Florida with a population of more than 40k when I-4 was originally built. I read somewhere, a while ago, that the leaders of Orlando, wanted the route to go through the heart of the city, while Lakeland's didn't.

[triadcat]

'Been to Orlando....nice city. Never been to Tampa, but I bet it is a nice city.
I have been to Florida just 2 or 3 times and enjoyed it.
Florida is a sexy state, so you should all be proud.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by O-town

I'm pretty sure most people, who don't know anything about the cities in question, would generally assume that a city with a larger skyline is the larger city. And when I say larger, I mean larger. Not taller. A two hundred foot difference doesn't make that much of an impact if you ask me.

Interesting point...

To continue on your assessment of the Tampa and Orlando skyline thing, now that I'm understanding you better....

Because of Orlando's unfortunate situation with the FAA hieght limit, the only way that Orlando's 'wider' skyline becomes percieved as bigger/better/whatever than Tampa's 'taller' skyline is if Orlando winds up having markedly more skyline piercing buildings. Surely we agree on this, as that is a pretty obvious conclusion... Unfortunately, there's little indication of that happening that I'm aware of... Consider that DT Tampa has more tall buildings now (10 300 footers to Orlando's 5...Not sure enough on counts to compare like 8+ floors) and just about as many on the way (32 buildings of 8+ floors u/c or proposed that will impact the DT skyline... Or, 12 new 300+ footers).





Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a solid building count for DT Orlando, based on markers like 8 floors, 10 floors, 20 floors, 100ft, 200ft, etc? I would be interested in a more conprehensive understanding of Orlando's DT skyline, without having to drive over there and count it up myself. Plus, it would help to factually prove/disprove some things people are always saying about Orlando in relation to other cities.

(btw, a 200ft difference isn't much unless a 200ft difference means the taller building is roughly 50% taller than the shorter one)

Originally Posted by O-town

I corrected him with a fact, plain and simple.

Actually, as I have proven, your facts aren't exactly all facts... But it's not like he didn't put his head in a warm, dark place.

[SkyDiveJunkee]

Here's a rough count of just downtown (does not include the attractions area or College Park/Winter Park):

Proposed:
400+: 8
300+: 3
200+: 8
100+: 7

U/C:
400+: 1
300+: 3
200+: 4
100+: 5

total: 39 (this number may be slightly inaccurate because some are multiple tower proposals which I counted as one, but its close)

For a pretty comprehensive look at Orlando development check out USPDan's website Orlando Skyscrapers. Go to the skyline link and see bic's before and after shots of Orlando. There is also good descriptions of each individual project, and when they break ground. Most are in 2006.

[jzquince69]

Orlando isn't a giant suburb 2 steps removed from Ocala...

Jason was trying to make an example regarding the public's perception of "bigger". And I agree, taller means bigger. However, Chicago will have four 1,100 footers or more to NYC's 2. Does Chicago have a bigger downtown? No. NYC has 4 times as many bldgs over 400 ft. in Manhattan vs. Chicago.

Where in downtown Orlando is all this space supposed to be? Underground, like the Magic Kingdom tunnels?

Note: Those stats don't include CNL #2, 801 N. Orange, and Premiere Trade Plaza, combined around 1,000,000ft2-- all U/C and/or newly built, which means Orlando would otherwise be neck and neck with downtown Jax.

I'm shocked, b/c if that's true, It looks bad statistically for the City of Miami- and Tampa, both of which have greater populations.

MIAMI: I assume those suburban stats are for Miami-Dade only, which means that Miami metro blows these other metros out of the water- perhaps combined; b/c I guarantee you, Broward and Palm Beach Counties have a very healthy office market.

Regarding the pissing match where a poster requested a list of companies in downtown Orlando, to the best of my recollection:
1. Hughes Supply (HQ)
2. Suntrust (Fla. HQ)
3. Wachovia
4. Travelers Ins.
5. Sun Sports
6. BB&T
7. CNL
8. Amsouth
9. Baker & Hostetler
10. Baker Barrios
11. Holland & Knight
12. Intercontinental (Nsync; Lou Pearlman's co.)
13. Bank of America
14. Trusco
15. Merchantile Bank
16. Dynetech
17. Schutts & Bowen
18. Gray, Harris
19. a whole host of other law firms, banks, and ins. co's; etc...

[jvance75]

yes, those stats only count the immediate urban/suburban area...miami-dade county for Miami, pinellas and hillsborough for Tampa...

[Lakelander]

Note: Those stats don't include CNL #2, 801 N. Orange, and Premiere Trade Plaza, combined around 1,000,000ft2-- all U/C and/or newly built, which means Orlando would otherwise be neck and neck with downtown Jax.

I'm shocked, b/c if that's true, It looks bad statistically for the City of Miami- and Tampa, both of which have greater populations.

Downtown Jax, and I assume Tampa and Miami, all have office projects U/C as well, so all of these numbers should rise. In downtown Jax alone, there's over 500k of office space currently under construction and at least another 1.5 million planned. Although Jax isn't in the discussion, I've always wondered how it's downtown high-rise proposals ranked with Florida's other large cities. We're high on number of proposals, but only have 5 (over 100ft) currently under construction. I've also noticed that typically most of the Jax proposals tend to be larger, in terms of residential units, then those in Orlando and Tampa (excluding the Central Park project).

Downtown Jacksonville

Proposed:
700+: 1
500+: 3
400+: 4
300+: 7
200+: 2
100+: 9

U/C:
400+: 1
300+: 1
200+: 1
100+: 2

Total: 31

Wildcards: (riverfront brownfield redevelopment projects)


1. The Shipyards (LandMar Group): 44 acres - 662 condos, hotel/office/retail-start date 2007.

judging from model and depending on revised layout, this site should have at least 5 or 6 towers over 100ft.



2. Southside Generation Station (Case Pomeroy): 25 acres - up to 2,000 condos, hotel/office/retail.

Haskell's 1,400 unit plan (before the deal fell throw allowing Case Pomeroy to buy the site)

[jzquince69]

MIAMI: I think these stats for the respective downtowns are all screwed up. In Miami, I don't think they are counting Brickell as downtown, and thats where all the banks are. I think the CBD is technically north of the Miami River.

Skydivejunkee's list also doesn't include Maitland and Altamonte Springs developments of bldgs over 12 stories (3 complete or U/C and more soon to break ground).

Also, regarding Orlando Office space downtown, there's 1,000,000ft2 U/C that I mentioned before, with another 450k ft2 proposed in four other announced projects: Dynetech, Tradition Towers, Capital Plaza III, and Collonades.

This does not include CNL's plans for a third tower, larger than its first 350k ft2 tower which will also include mixed use (on top of that), and the PBL&T development, a four-tower project across from Orange County Cthse, which will have at least another 500k ft2 office space as well as residential and retail.

[jvance75]

i noticed Jax projects usually do tend to be huge, but after reading the article on jax having no height limits in downtown, it would make total sense to maximize profits for every project.....instead of the control the FAA has on Orlando, St. Petersburg, Tampa, and Miami...thats one thing I know will impede and stunt the developments in the above mentioned cities, and already has.

I am the one that asked about large business operations in DT Orlando. Before that list I had no idea other than Suntrust. One question though, other than a small recruiting office in Orlando, I am not aware of any type of large business operations in Orlando for Bank of America. I'm not asking what buildings have a name on the building in DT...just what businesses actually have a large presence/headquarters there, no pissing contest, I really have no idea. A great example of this is right here in DT St. Petersburg, BofA has their name on the current tallest tower here but only really leases some space on the 4th and 18th floor....but really only jax and Tampa can claim the Florida operations/HQ for Bank of America.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by SkyDiveJunkee

[cut out some stuff to not make the quote huge]

For a pretty comprehensive look at Orlando development check out USPDan's website Orlando Skyscrapers. Go to the skyline link and see bic's before and after shots of Orlando. There is also good descriptions of each individual project, and when they break ground. Most are in 2006.

Sweet! Thanks... One thing though, is there a good count for the existing skyline?

That's the same Dan who runs the planning forum, right?




So actually, the upcoming projects lists are pretty similar (even for Jax, as we see), except for DT Tampa's ending as tall as ~625ft, while DT Orlando's top out at more like ~450ft.

(something that should be noted is that I left out the 2 largest redevelopment projects in the DT area, because there aren't firm numbers on the quantity or hieght of the taller buildings which will be included (BofA project, and Central Park project)... Suffice to say, with the projects totalling about 5,000 housing units and going by schematic renderings I've seen, I would guess that a bare minimum of 8-10 midrises will be part of the mix... Also not included was sketchy BS like the Hillsborough River Tower, Teleconvergence Center or the Pinnacle/O2 project)

[jvance75]

jasonhouse, it seems as though those stats for other cities include the "sketchy" and twin tower projects counted as two towers....so if we go by that, lets follow the Tampa Trib's total list which is 45 and that does not count all the twins as two. And let's not forget that Clearwater, St. Petersburg exist in the bay area, and also the projects on the beaches for Jax, Tampa Bay, and South Florida. Wait though, you can't really compare because of all these other variables. pointless...

[Lakelander]

The Jax number includes sound twin tower projects, such as St. Johns Center, which has two under construction and another 40 story tower planned to break ground in 2006. However, like Tampa's Central Park & BOA, I left out the larger Shipyards and Southside Generation Station projects, because little information is available to how and when will developers built out their planned combined 2,662 residential units, office, retail and hotel space.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

Jason was trying to make an example regarding the public's perception of "bigger". And I agree, taller means bigger. However, Chicago will have four 1,100 footers or more to NYC's 2. Does Chicago have a bigger downtown? No. NYC has 4 times as many bldgs over 400 ft. in Manhattan vs. Chicago.

The problem is, Orlando doesn't have a significantly greater number of skyline piercing buildings... And since we don't readily know building counts for both DTs on markers like 8 stories, 100ft or whatever, nobody even knows if DT Orlando presently has more buildings at all. (I assume it does, but it appears that the greater number resides in the 12 stories or less ground clutter, and is probably by 10 buildings or so)



Personally, I'm rather impressed in the realization that DT Tampa can be reasonably compared to any city at all, considering how damn sprawled the place is, and how much districts like Westshore, DT St Pete, Gateway, and even Clearwater pull commerce away from DT Tampa.... To a lesser degree, the same can of course be said of Orlando with I-Drive, Winter Park, et al.

I've always felt that DT Tampa should have developed more like DT San Diego, but wound up more like DT Phoenix.