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Old June 26th, 2014, 11:37 PM   #481
friedrichstrasse
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Also in Italy, and particularly in Rome, trams were removed and substituted with trolleybuses, which were at that time more confortable and flexible in the increasing traffic.
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Old June 27th, 2014, 02:40 AM   #482
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Also in Italy, and particularly in Rome, trams were removed and substituted with trolleybuses, which were at that time more confortable and flexible in the increasing traffic.
The same in Spain, but now tramways are back!
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Old June 27th, 2014, 03:20 AM   #483
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Also in Italy, and particularly in Rome, trams were removed and substituted with trolleybuses, which were at that time more confortable and flexible in the increasing traffic.
Never to the same extent as in France, Spain or the UK, where trams were literally massacred.

Italy kept its trams instead (and Portugal too, btw), or at least important parts of them, maybe just a little less than Germany, Switzerland, or other northern countries.

Trams in Rome have never been closed (albeit the network has been savagely cut in the past decades, that┤s true, and now it┤s growing up again).

And trams in Torino and Milan have never ever died, those two networks are rather large and can be compared to Germany or Switzerland trams in network size.

Trams in Naples have never been completely closed either, as far as I know.
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Old June 27th, 2014, 06:51 AM   #484
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The old Athens tram used to be the favorite urban transportation for the residents from all walks of life, in particular the folks at the grassroots level, due to its high frequency, its low cost and its easiness to leap on and jump off board, while the reincarnated tram is more like to be designed for a planned VIP trip. It gains speed, gains efficiency, gains order, gains stability, but the lively dynamism, the social inclusion and the human touch seem to be somewhat missing. Can we regain those lost qualities?
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Old June 27th, 2014, 03:21 PM   #485
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buses

Irisbus Citelis CNG Athens



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Old June 27th, 2014, 03:29 PM   #486
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For me Athens metro is 'a diamond in the rough' of a chaotic concrete city.
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Old June 27th, 2014, 03:44 PM   #487
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For me Athens metro is 'a diamond in the rough' of a chaotic concrete city.
Athens Metro is wonderful. I love it!
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Old June 29th, 2014, 11:09 AM   #488
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Quote:
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Irisbus Citelis CNG Athens
This is not an Irisbus Citelis CNG but an Irisbus Agora S Diesel. Citelis CNG is the bus below:



Irisbus Agora S Diesel serve Piraeus and the surrounding areas (Nikaia, Koridallos, Egaleo and so on). There are about 280 busses of this type in Athens.

On the other hand, Irisbus Citelis serve the northwest suburbs of Athens such as Peristeri, Ilion, Petroupoli, Nea Filadelfia and so on. They were used for the first time in the beginning of 2011 and there are 200 busses of this type in Athens.
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Old July 1st, 2014, 12:57 AM   #489
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How many buses have you got in Athens city? And trolleybuses?
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川添 Kawazoe (riverside) 海斗 Kaito (big dipper of the ocean), in Japanese.
Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allÝ. Norreport+12000
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Old July 1st, 2014, 02:13 PM   #490
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Quote:
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How many buses have you got in Athens city? And trolleybuses?
Αccording to the official site, there are 2.052 buses.
Most of them (893) are EURO II diesel or LPG.

Diesel: 1.442 in total
LPG: 610 in total

In addition, there are 356 trolleybuses in Athens

http://www.osy.gr/ethelsite/pages/allBuses.php
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Old July 1st, 2014, 07:27 PM   #491
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Incredible!

You need much more metro and tramway lines and less buses and trolleybuses.
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Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allÝ. Norreport+12000

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Old July 1st, 2014, 08:04 PM   #492
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Incredible!

You need much more metro and tramway lines and less buses and trolleybuses.
Τrue... Metro extensions are on the way (Piraeus, Line 4 etc).
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Old July 1st, 2014, 08:15 PM   #493
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Buses and trolleys can offer views you will never see from the metro:

Bus 503 towards Varybobi:



Bus 504 towards the Olympic Village:



Trolley 20 at Kastella:

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Old July 2nd, 2014, 12:16 AM   #494
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Nai!

Of course you can see those views from elevated metro, or from modern tramways!
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Old July 4th, 2014, 01:22 PM   #495
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FOOLISH AUTHORITY OF ATHENS

Athens’ great tram network was closed in 1960 for some blunt reasons –

“The infrastructure and fleet of the systems that closed service in the 1960's were usually in very bad condition. So it was easier and cheaper for the companies to change to bus-service because the cities made the streets often completely new in these days because of the many new cars. They also thought that there is no place for trams on the streets anymore and that the old and slowly trams will disturb the car- and bus-traffic.”

If you see to many European cities, which is also very old, even older and congested than Athens, was prevented the world’s sixties trend to close tram networks. They patiently improved their infrastructure & fleets step by step, and imported sometimes foreign trams also. They gradually increased their network with both reserved and unreserved track. Shenyang could do that. By gradually improving rolling stocks looking those cities, they can maintain their network. Even my city Kolkata, where tram is under trouble, still has a good network.

1) The advent of buses and large scale competition meant that buses often ran the same routes as the trams and would jump in front in order to "grab" customers.

Buses are still present in Athens, even much more than before. Aren’t they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Shenyang Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus. Actually they started following other cities for withdrawing tram during fifties.

2) While buses were able to move into Athens’ expanding hinterland quicker and at less cost that the trams.


Current tram network has situated in suburb, and the infrastructure is more expensive like bus (includes masts, wires, stops, etc.,). But they are very popular for commuters than bus. If now they can re-make that costly infrastructure, why not past? Previous network was much ordinary than present. Actually they were lobbying the automobile industry, and the industry started marketing automobiles, like many cities around the world.

3) The belief that trams were outdated and old technology meanwhile,

If tram is really outdated, why the transport authority returned it in Athens? It clearly shows that outdated technology idea was completely fake.

4) There was a belief that buses were cheaper to run than trams.

Although initial construction cost of tramway network is higher, but it is profitable for long term, because buses runs on diesel, which is being costly month by month over the world, and also decreasing from nature’s storage. Diesel can’t be made artificially, but electricity can make from various sources, like air, water, tide etc, so it is unlimited, and it is also pollution free.

5) The system was in a poor state of repair.

Many cities around the Europe, has maintained tram, struggling over World War 2, by investing seriously on track & rolling stocks. Even I live in Kolkata, but my city has still a good tram network. When Athens closed their tram in 1960, Kolkata’s tram has started its decline – but still one of the large system in Asia. So “impossible repairing” is just another lie.

6) The overcrowded and heaving trams running at a high frequency, in competition with growing private motor car and bus use, created congestion.

Buses are still present in Athens, even much more than before. Aren’t they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Shenyang Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus. It says that trams were overcrowded, it means were very popular among the citizens, and also ran on high frequency, means a reliable service. Actually they started following other cities for withdrawing tram during sixties.

7) Competition from the private car, private bus operators and the perception of traffic congestion led to the gradual closure of lines from the 1970s.

Despite the competition with automobile, they were very popular among citizens due to high frequency. Actually they were lobbying the automobile industry, and the industry started marketing automobiles, like many cities around the world.

8) Closure was supported by the authority, but generally went against public opinion.


It is very natural that ordinary people can’t be against with tram. Tram is pollution free, gentle and a status symbol of a civilized city. Even I live in Kolkata, but my city has still a good tram network.

So are we sure that Athens will not again close its tram for some updated closure reasons?
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Old July 4th, 2014, 04:56 PM   #496
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Quote:
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4) There was a belief that buses were cheaper to run than trams.

Although initial construction cost of tramway network is higher, but it is profitable for long term, because buses runs on diesel, which is being costly month by month over the world, and also decreasing from nature’s storage. Diesel can’t be made artificially, but electricity can make from various sources, like air, water, tide etc, so it is unlimited, and it is also pollution free.
This is not correct in that simplicity. The average cost of Kilometer by train/car, including maintainance, energy and stuff is the highest for tram, followed by bus and than by Metro in central Europe. Energy costs have to be seen in relation with the average use of space offered. To say it short: An empty running tram would be en ecologic desaster, no matter where the electric energy derives. This is a mistake often made with effectiveness of rail-transport. As it is not that flexible, there is a need for a certain amount of passengers to make it beneficial. If a privatley owned
company does not have passengers anymore but a big demand of maintainance, what are they supposed to do? I┤m not lucky about those closings but I would not call the authorities foolish. Sorry, but it┤s more foolish to judge about things in that way from a comfortable position of the present...

The main advantage of tram is to handle significant more passengers than bus with only one train and driver. After that there are issues about comfort. As a rule, it┤s obvious, that a passenger demand which could be satisfied by an articulated bus in a minimum 10-Minute headway should left bus-transport. European tram-lines do need at least 10.000 passengers in total on every part of the line to make it a tram-worthy transport-solution.


Sorry for talking here in general. Regarding Athenes there are surely bus-lines worth to be converted into tram-lines. But this city is still one of the biggest in Europe without sufficient metro-network.


Kind regards
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Old July 4th, 2014, 11:23 PM   #497
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FOOLISH AUTHORITY OF ATHENS

Athens’ great tram network was closed in 1960 for some blunt reasons –
Trams/streetcars in that era where pretty bad. Here in Toronto we didn't close most of our streetcar network. Which is good. However we didn't upgrade or change the way they where operated since the 40's unlike other cities. Today they are utter crap, the slowest moving things downtown. I can kind of see why legacy systems where closed back in the day. However back to Athens you can see more or less the areas formerly served by trams is now or will be served by the Metro. The sections that are not already have a modern tram operating.
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Old July 5th, 2014, 12:12 AM   #498
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First trams in Athens went off in 1953 in favour of trolley buses. The then minister of Public Works & Transport had a conflict with the tram company ("Power"). Trams were really old and the company would not do something about it.
The press at the time was 100% for the trolley busses, which they believed were more flexible and more quite.
Last tram in Athens got out of service October 15th 1960, except the line in Piraeus which stopped in 1977, the same year wich busses went under state control.
There were no real competition with private car (in the 50s & 60s), but more with busses & trolleys.
In any case public transport wasn't effective. You could move faster in a private car, but very few could afford one back then. For example, in 1964 only 81,617 private cars were on the Greek roads.
In any case, today noone would think of get trams out of service once again. There is a plan for even more trams in the near future.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 07:20 AM   #499
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In any case, today noone would think of get trams out of service once again. There is a plan for even more trams in the near future.
Really? then this is a very good news. I hope Athens will serve many routes again, which one once closed.
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Old July 9th, 2014, 07:21 AM   #500
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I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one –

1) Left side, right side or both sides, - which type of platforms are in most numbers in Athens subway network?
2) Which is the highest station & deepest of Athens metro?
3) Which is the busiest metro station?
4) Where is/are the depot(s) of the subway network?
5) Elevated, ground level or underground, - which type of stations are in most numbers in Athens subway network?
6) When the construction of line 2 & 3 started, was the remains of old tram system of Athina discovered under the surface?
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