Liverpool South Parkway

[Martin S]

I think I'm right in saying that the first use of the term Parkway was Bristol Parkway that opened in the 70s or 80s. The idea was that people accessing Bristol could park their car at the station and do the remainder of their journey by rail, so avoiding congestion.

Although we have obviously made a lot of its connections to the airport, Liverpool South Parkway will have a parkway function as well and permit motorists to leave their cars on the outskirts and travel into the city centre by rail. There will also be a bus interchange and provision for a tram route.

As for using the Parkway as a route from the city centre to the airport, I agree that it probably won't attract that many passengers because of the direct bus services but I doubt that was ever the intention.

What the Parkway does allow is for integration between the Northern Line and main line rail services. So, for example, anyone travelling from Bootle to Warrington can travel to the Parkway and change onto a main line train.

It will also give the airport a much greater rail catchment area. There will be direct rail services from Southport to the Parkway, easy connections to all stations on the Merseyrail network, main line services from Birmingham and Manchester and a frequent bus shuttle that will deliver passengers straight to the terminal doors.

Merseyrail are planning to introduce a new service called the 'Allerton Arrow' that will run non-stop from Liverpool South Parkway to Lime Street.

Many of the interchange functions that now take place at Hunts Cross will take place at LSP but I think that, in future rail electrification will be extended at least as far as the Merseyside border at Hough Green but possibly on to Warrington Central. That will make sense as it helps balance the service to have a major centre for the terminus station.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Martin S

Merseyrail are planning to introduce a new service called the 'Allerton Arrow' that will run non-stop from Liverpool South Parkway to Lime Street.

That's good. I've proposed this idea on here before, over a Northern Line branch extension.. Ideally, it would extend to the airport, which could be a future project. Do you know what sort of trains they'll use Martin? Overhead electrification is possible on that length of track, isn't it? Nice, clean, spacy electric trains would be best with plenty of room for luggage. I hope they don't just get a couple of old clapped out diesels off Northern Rail!

[Martin S]

The line they will use is the one from the old Allerton station to Lime Street, which was electrified in the 1960s. I don't know what sort of trains they will use but I hope they are relatively modern electric stock.

[bluesnapper]

Reading things on the net, I have tried to find what will, subject to confirmation, stop at the Liverpool South Parkway.

Transpennine Express
to/from Lime Street, Manc, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Scarborough and Middlesborough - frequency up to one per hour Monday to Friday

Central Trains
to/from Lime Street, Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Woverhampton and Birmingham - frequency up to 24 per day Monday to Friday

to/from Lime Street, Warrington, Manc, Stockport, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough and Norwich - frequency up to 15 per day to Nottingham and up to 9 per day carrying onto Norwich per day Monday to Friday

plus more 'local trains' using Merseyrail and Northern.

[Gazzab]

Travelling in to Liverpool from Lancaster/Morecambe has become a nightmare. The direct train has gone so now involves changing at Preston or Wigan, sometimes both.

[Martin G]

Originally Posted by Bunnyman

How about the George Harrison Interchange?

Why Liverpool South Parkway? Shite name. Why couldn't they keep it as 'Allerton Interchange'? Why is there an urge in this plebby little country to poncify the names of things?

Good point - in the West Midlands over 25 years ago they erased the name OLDBURY from the railway map in favour of a completely meaningless name SANDWELL AND DUDLEY - notwithstanding the fact there is NO SUCH TOWN AS SANDWELL ANYWAY and that Dudley was more than 2 miles south west of the station. Obviously, it was a cynical ploy to put DUDLEY on the rail map as it was - perhaps still is - the largest UK town without a direct rail connection. But all this was done at poor Oldbury's expense anyway. This station was redeveloped as a "parkway" station for InterCity trains in 1980-81, but tellingly these days very few long distance (Virgin) trains bother calling there anyway as the non-stop run between Wolverhampton and Birmingham is tricky enough due to limited track capacity and the other stopping locals that share this line. So all in all, there were even proposals to revert the station name back to Oldbury in recent years....but as you can see sod all has been done since. The railways have always had this knack of meaningless re-naming just for the sake of it.

[Martin G]

Originally Posted by Martin S

Many of the interchange functions that now take place at Hunts Cross will take place at LSP but I think that, in future rail electrification will be extended at least as far as the Merseyside border at Hough Green but possibly on to Warrington Central. That will make sense as it helps balance the service to have a major centre for the terminus station.

Obviously, this new "Parkway" station will replace Hunt's Cross as the interchange point between the Merseyrail Electrics system and the Northern/City Line services once it is built. However, one will STILL be able to use Hunt's Cross as an interchange station exactly as before nevertheless (unless they decide NOT to stop Widnes/Hough Green-bound trains there thus meaning you have to use LSP anyway, which I doubt will happen) because once Merseyrail Electrics services leave the new combined Allerton/Garston LSP station (where direct interchange between the Northern and City Lines can be made) they then continue on to Hunt's Cross where interchange between Merseyrail Northern and City lines is again possible....Odd situation that don't you agree??

[Martin G]

Originally Posted by Gareth

I've also heard that some Northern Line Trains will terminate here rather than at Hunts Cross. I can't see what benefit this possibly brings.

This new arrangement reminds me irresistibly of the old days in the 70s-80s when Birkenhead North was the terminus for all trains on the diesel branch to Wrexham (later known as the Mid-Wirral line as it kind of pre-empted the initial route of the M53 mid-Wirral motorway) via Upton, Heswall and Neston. The arrangement was pretty easy as Liverpool-bound Merseyrail Electric services from New Brighton and West Kirby would feed into Birkenhead North where cross platform connections/interchange was then made with the Diesel service on the third platform for Wrexham. Well, in a classic case of "if it ain't broke then don't fix it", British Rail then decided some years later to move the Wrexham connections out of the extra platform that was freely available for this transfer at Birkenhead North to BIDSTON STATION over a mile to the west - thus meaning people travelling from New Brighton to Wrexham would now have to make TWO changes (instead of just the one as before) in order to get the Wrexham connection - firstly at Birkenhead North for a WEST KIRBY BOUND Electric service, then only to get off one stop later at BIDSTON to wait again for the diesel Wrexham service which shares the same island platform as the much more frequent West Kirby-Liverpool services. This would of course cause potential operational difficulties around the Bidston area due to the limited line capacity for the frequent West Kirby service meaning any Wrexham bound trains arriving at Bidston would have to slot into the "windows" afforded between 15 minute gaps in each direction - and then ensure they have a minimum turn around time so as not to obstruct the next West Kirby outward or return service...... A far less ideal and convenient arrangement as you can see - but, inexplicably, one which continues to this day some 25 years later.

This is now going to be possibly repeated with the Liverpool South Parkway vs Hunt's Cross scenario whereby people travelling to Hunt's Cross on the Merseyrail Northern Line may now have to get off at the new Parkway station (if indeed this is planned to be the new terminus instead) and then have to wait for a diesel service to ferry them onto Hunt's Cross to complete the final lap of their journey - pretty insane as you can see, not to mention grossly inconvenient for those who have spent most of their lives using the Northern Line as far as Hunt's Cross to begin with - after all it IS electrified for this reason isn't it? So "decommissioning" it for through electric suburban services is rather absurd in my opinion....

[Toadboy]

I can't see Hunts Cross losing it's electrified link, I haven't used it for years, in fact the last time I used it wa in the early 90's when economic activity and trips in to the city centre for whatever reason were far lower than they are now. Hunts Cross is a VERY busy station for commuters, shoppers and nightlife/leisure in the evening.

[captain joe]

As I understand it, Hunts Cross will loose the expresses to Manchester Pic but keep the 2 local services to Oxford Road - thus it will be less convenient as an interchange station, but still possible to use.

No one is talking about terminating the northern line at Liverpool South Parkway, infact if you look at the draft local transport plan they are looking at the possibility of extending it to Warrington in the future.

[Bachy Soletanche]

But South Parkway isn't on the Northen Line, is it?

I'm getting confused.

The Express to Manchester Pic -> Nottingham/Norwich dosn't stop at Hunts Cross except about 2 times in the morning about Quarter past 8.

[Toadboy]

South Liverpool Parkway will be a Northern Line station, Garston station is relocating there. The Northern Line runs on the other side of what was Holly Park from Allerton Station.

[captain joe]

Originally Posted by Stephen Robinson

But South Parkway isn't on the Northen Line, is it?

I'm getting confused.

The Express to Manchester Pic -> Nottingham/Norwich dosn't stop at Hunts Cross except about 2 times in the morning about Quarter past 8.

The point of the ststion is that it provides an interchange between the northern line/city line/ long distance services.

Most Nottingham services don't stop at hunts cross, but the hourly express to Leeds, York etc does. I understand this will be moved to LSP, plus all the Nottingham and Birmingham services will stop there.

So there will be 4 trains an hour to Manchester, 1 to Birmingham and I think there are plans for a local service to Crewe every 2 hours.

[jets9]

It's all a bit of a typical planning joke. If you think about it, Hunts Cross is rather well placed for forward trips to JLA, so geographically it's six of one and.........

[Toadboy]

Hunts Cross doesn't have the space for park and ride, bus interchange, trams etc.

[bluesnapper]

Not being a rail expert but doesn't the Liverpool South parkway have access to Merseyrail, services to Warrington, Manc and the north and east, services to Widnes, Runcorn and the South and hopefully via the Halton Curve to Chester and North Wales?

Whereas Hunts Cross has Merseyrail, services to Warrington and Manc and no room to build a park-and-ride.

[Martin G]

Well, we weren't suggesting that Hunt's Cross (HX) would lose any of its Northern Line services as we're aware of a future longer term proposal to extend the third rail even further towards Halewood/Hough Green on the extremity of the PTE boundary (like what they did on the Wirral Line at Hooton before even that scheme was pushed further out into Cheshire and Ellesmere Port and Chester) - rather, we were just worried that that would have been just one possible consequence of Liverpool South Parkway being the main interchange station between City/Northern line services, as past experiences elsewhere have always shown that one station would become more important whilst another would diminish in importance, etc...
Obviously it's preferable to leave things as they are and retain Hunt's Cross as the interchange it currently still is to some degree. But then someone above mentioned the car parking issue and as HX cannot accommodate anywhere near as many cars as LSP will then obviously it will be at a disadvantage as far as the latter is concerned.

Besides, in this case, the regular number 80 bus from the city centre that runs between Garston station and Liverpool JL airport (which I often use whenever I fly by EasyJet to Holland and arrive in Garston by train) would now have to re-route itself a mile or so to serve the new expanded Allerton/LSP complex by way of a special designated bus stop for Airport buses. Of course, it goes without saying that once this service is re-routed here then all other sevices to the airport from the city centre - such as the 500 Airport Xpress - will have to follow suit - it's only logical to do this if that's the sort of integration they ultimately want to have in order to justify the strategic importance of having a Parkway station in the first place.

[Bachy Soletanche]

Right, having opened my eyes the last time I went through:

LSP will be able to serice the trains coming from Both Runcorn (b'ham, London) and Widnes, (Manchester, Nottingham etc), but there's no sign of a Northen Line, except where it comes out of Tunnel not that far afterwards, ie towards HX, so maybe it goes under LSP?

I dunno!

Found this:

http://www.edmund-nuttall.co.uk/news...%20merger.html

I don't remember the Winter being espically bad... But then, I've been indoors..

Is Garston Station that close then?

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Stephen Robinson

Right, having opened my eyes the last time I went through:

LSP will be able to serice the trains coming from Both Runcorn (b'ham, London) and Widnes, (Manchester, Nottingham etc), but there's no sign of a Northen Line, except where it comes out of Tunnel not that far afterwards, ie towards HX, so maybe it goes under LSP?

I dunno!

Found this:

http://www.edmund-nuttall.co.uk/news...%20merger.html

I don't remember the Winter being espically bad... But then, I've been indoors..

Is Garston Station that close then?

I assure you, the Northern Line will have a stop at LSP and, yes, Garston Station wil close as will Allerton Station on the London line.

[Toadboy]

The Northern Line and Mainline cross a few hundred yards from Allerton Stations platform. They go away from each other at about a 45 degree angle. Between where Allerton station stands and the Northern Line to Garston is a piece of land that was formerly Holly Park - Home of South Liverpool FC. So effectively it's a football pitches width plus the depth of 2 small terraces/stands between the two lines.

My guess would be that although the platforms will be seperated the station facilities will be in one single place serving both lines.

The old football pitch will be the bus terminus/car park etc.