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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:26 AM   #241
Justme
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Justme

Your point would be relevant if I ever defended the DDR regime as a good regime, I haven't. So again, stop with the red herrings. You consistently misunderstand the thrust of this conversation in your ideological belief in the inherent 'evil' of communism and the DDR. My point, which you seem totally intellectually incapable of understanding is this:

The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century; thus, the full circle of history, or as Fukuyama calls it the 'End of History' has come to the heart of Berlin, denoting that the deviation of the 20th century is over. However, that edifice also represents a regime that represented one of the most barbarous and uncivilized eras of Europe's history largely instigated by its revisionist aspirations. East Germany was no angelic regime and I never defended it as such. However, the DDR's record is not even close to that of the Reich. In addition, within the context of the Cold War, the DDR's record is not that different and in many cases better than most other capitalist societies, particularly in the developing world. Basically, I think that rebuilding the palace is a regression back to a mentality and an era that should have been left back in 1918 and it highlights that as long as you are 'on the right side of history', i.e. capitalism, liberalism, etc., your transgressions can be overlooked.
Absolutely not. The building was torn down because it was ugly. It was an eyesore and it was unloved. The historical palace is being rebuilt because it was beautiful, because many people missed it for the iconic construction in it's previous location.

Basically, ugly out, beauty in.

There are still many old DDR buildings in Berlin, as there are Nazi buildings. The good looking ones remain.

Life is a lot more simple than you try to make of it. Sit back, have a beer and stop trying to analyze everything.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 11:55 AM   #242
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I believe that communism isn't bad...its just that the dictators used this wonderful ideology to feed themselves with power, and this is why Communism always failed to prove itself in a large scale...because the idea of it is wonderful but it always seemed like this type of government fell into the devil's hand. This is why i don't trust communism or socialism anymore.
I agree. The principle with communism is not bad. It's just that it can never work. A much simplified example why can be seen here:

* A communist country is created. Many people may not agree with it, but they must have no choice. After all, if they choose to change it, the communist state ceases to exist.

* Even if the communist state comes into being in a peaceful, bloodless way (which rarely happens), the problem is that not all the world is communist, so those who don't want to live in a communist country would leave. This usually includes the well educated and highly skilled people. The engineers, the designers, highly skilled surgeons etc. Why? Because if given the choice to live in a country which does not reward them for their hard work or skill, but the country next door does, then they may choose to move.

* This causes a "brain drain", and the economy suffers terribly, so the government must pose border restrictions to try and stop the exodus. They can't do what capitalist countries may try when similar brain drains happen, such as decrease taxes or other incentives, because this denies the principles of communism where all are equal. Closing the borders is the only choice.

* These border restrictions create an additional conflict for the highly skilled citizens, who not only face significantly lower wages and rewards for their hard work, but also virtual imprisonment. So, more skilled workers try to leave the country.

* This forces the government to enact harsher penalties and restrictions. Not only are border controls tightened, but travel restrictions are forced onto the population to make it even harder to reach the border.

* This in return makes it more desirable to "escape" into a free society. Now, not only are high skilled workers wanting to leave, many working class citizens also feel restricted.

* As the regime becomes more and more controlled and restricted, more people become desperate to leave. Simple restrictions are not enough, so the government must now threaten violence, death or imprisonment for anyone trying to leave the country.

* As you can imagine, this will just make it more important to leave, so death or imprisonment is simply not enough. People would care about the safety of their families and the need to escape would become higher, so the government would have to start threatening the families themselves. Nothing scares parents more than threats to their children and now we have a truly dangerous and evil government which will do anything to retain the control on their population. Those hard core communists, who still believe strongly in their system, would turn to draconian methods to ensure the system retains. Anyone, working class or skilled, who in the slightest way is feared to disagree with the system will be reported to the police. This in turns creates a society of total fear.

* Fear in the government turns into paranoiac proportions. And any form of criticism of the government has long been banned. This controls all form of free speech, art, music, literature and society. Society itself has turned into one of fear and poverty. There are not enough highly skilled people in the country and even the working classes are not inspired - only fear keeps them working.

* Finally, through the economy, which always is threatening to collapse, the ecology and environment is neglected. There is no money to care about pollution or ecological needs. Factories are inefficient and the environment suffers greatly. During the communist period it was so clear how much worse the environment was in those countries.

This maybe a totally simplified set of steps, but in effect it is how every attempt at communism has resulted in. What Nico_Uru doesn't seem to understand, or at least acknowledge, is that if he lives in a free society, he is free to speak against that society and of his mind. People will debate with him, but that is as far as it will go. If the society he so cherishes is created, no form of free speech would then be tolerated including his own.

It is a path we must not fall down again.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 12:00 PM   #243
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What's all the fuss here about? Everybody should be happy this eyesore called 'palace' () is gone.
Whatever might replace it (I'm not too happy they won't reconstruct the whole Stadtschloss).
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Old July 20th, 2009, 04:55 PM   #244
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All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.
You really do have some serious issues. Why don't you come to our little racist country and see the people for yourself.

I don't blame buildings for the people that lived in them. Had the PdR looked like some of the buildings on Karl-Marx-Allee I probably would have been in favor of keeping it since EGermany's "national tradition" style represents some of the finest post-WW2-architecture around.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 07:46 PM   #245
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I've said my piece on this issue, you know where I stand. The PdR has been demolished, the Palace will be built I cannot change that. However, I think it says a lot of what values modern German society has. All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.
Well, you sure have made your point clear, The only thing I would add is that characterising 200 years of Prussian monarchy as reducible to genocide, mass murder, autocracy etc etc. is a dramatic statement, simplistic and tied to a rigid cognitive schema at best, highly offensive and misleading at worst.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 08:00 PM   #246
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Indeed. And you could say way more terrible things about other empires, such as the Brit or the French one.

But would anyone consider to tear down Buckingham Palace or all Empire style buildings?
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Old July 20th, 2009, 08:35 PM   #247
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To add to this, I would like to point out that I would imagine few people here would oppose the Fernsehenturm, which was also build by the DDR and had public viewing points for the masses. Why, because it's quite cool and looks good.

The Palace of the Republic is simply horrible and ugly. Thankfully it's gone, and what will be in it's place will be many times better. Though I must admit I see the point of view from those who would prefer a modern building. Modern or a replica of the original palace, either is good for me as long as the ugly Palace of the Republic departs Berlin.
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Old July 20th, 2009, 10:20 PM   #248
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To add to this, I would like to point out that I would imagine few people here would oppose the Fernsehenturm, which was also build by the DDR and had public viewing points for the masses. Why, because it's quite cool and looks good.
Good example... the television tower was built explicitly as a landmark that overtops any other building in Berlin and is easily visible from the west. It has been a much more powerful symbol of the GDR than the Palace of the Republic ever was, since its appearance and symbolic power was directed right towards the 'enemy'.

So if the true intention behind tearing down the PdR was to destroy the symbols of socialism, why didn't they start with the Fernsehturm?
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Old July 20th, 2009, 10:34 PM   #249
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Their intention was to tear down an ugly building and replace it with a beautiful one which can be used without worries (thinking about the asbestos issue).
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Old July 20th, 2009, 10:43 PM   #250
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I hope that everyone's got it now. To fear the emergence of a new Prussian-German nationalism because a socialist 'palace' has been torn down and a former Prussian palace is going to be (partially) rebuilt... this is simply ridiculous.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 04:50 AM   #251
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Living in a world of mirrors and appearances are we people?
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Old July 21st, 2009, 01:11 PM   #252
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Arent we all?



Personally I dont think it looked bad
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Old July 21st, 2009, 01:31 PM   #253
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It looked bad.


















(all images by Wiki)
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Old July 21st, 2009, 01:51 PM   #254
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I love it. The old building was the eye-sore of eye-sores.

I love those old pictures of Berlin from the year 1900. Berling should really destroy everything that was built after that and replace the old buildings with that.
Then they could build skyscrapers on the outskirts.

Start of with a clean sheet.
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Old July 21st, 2009, 01:56 PM   #255
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It was not only ugly, but also unusable. It was built of asbestos concrete, asbestos-containing materials were used for the insulation as well. The fibre concentration in the air inside was far above the permissible value.

Refurbishment would have been even more expensive then a reconstruction of the City Palace. So what should it be then? A memorial?

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Old July 21st, 2009, 08:18 PM   #256
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Refurbishment would have been even more expensive then a reconstruction of the City Palace. So what should it be then? A memorial?

Evidence for that? It was already deemed safe since there were already art exhibitions in the building. So again, prove it. Thousands of buildings that were infested with Asbestos have been refurbished and are in use all over the world and I doubt it would cost as much as a new Palace!

erbse

Of course it is going to look back after years of neglect...nice misrepresentation of the Palast.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:48 AM   #257
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It didn't look much better when it was still maintained. Propaganda through Alpina white.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 02:05 PM   #258
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I really like the rebuilding of the castle. What a shame it was destroyed en replaced. Buth I don't like the modern wall on the back of the castle.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 07:21 PM   #259
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It didn't look much better when it was still maintained. Propaganda through Alpina white.
Uh-huh and the Palace is not a piece of propaganda... Your post was a piece of propaganda by misrepresenting the Palast.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 07:51 PM   #260
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What are you talking about? Go and have some nice stuff for dinner.
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