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Old July 22nd, 2009, 08:05 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
Uh-huh and the Palace is not a piece of propaganda... Your post was a piece of propaganda by misrepresenting the Palast.
The new Palace? No, it's not propaganda. It was rebuilt to restore the aesthetical unity within the historical precinct of Berlin.

There is no political motive to change people's views with this construction.

You might be shocked by this, but most normal people don't care so much about politics as you
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 08:14 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
I do not think it speaks well for Germany that it so conveniently chooses to re-build a building that was at the heart of imperialist terror.

Nonsense! They'll rebuild an important landmark in the centre of the city, which used to stand there for hundreds of years!
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 09:10 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
You might be shocked by this, but most normal people don't care so much about politics as you
But the people who are paying for it, I suspect do... Again, if you go way back to our discussion I made that terribly clear. Ergo, you are arguing something that is irrelevant to my discussion.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:03 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
But the people who are paying for it, I suspect do...
You "suspect"? Or you "know"?

I suspect you think you know but when in fact you are quite incorrect.

I have never read any document regarding this construction that brings any politics into the new building. The new building will contain the following:

* Quality Shops (probably more at the higher end of the market, which is quite fitting for a building of this design
* Restaurants
* A museum
* A Business Center
* Rooms for corporate "special events" and functions

I don't see anywhere a political motive behind it. In fact, this new palace will be more open to the public than the DDR version as being a shopping center people will be able to visit on a daily basis, not just when events happen.

Man, what world do you live in.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 10:30 PM   #265
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I don't see anywhere a political motive behind it. In fact, this new palace will be more open to the public than the DDR version as being a shopping center people will be able to visit on a daily basis, not just when events happen.

I went through this before, the destruction of the Palast--the former seat of the Socialist DDR--was a political act to bury that legacy. Those who supported the destruction of the Palast used, in large measure, the "totalitarian nightmare" of the DDR to justify why it should be torn down. You yourself have used these excuses as reasons why the Palast should go, and many of your colleagues have as well. These are inherently political acts. The construction of the Palace represents the old 'natural' German order of capitalism and liberal/enlightenment progressivism. I said in the thread that I would support the demolition of the Palast under the condition that a new building was built to signify a new Germany. The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.

I suggest you watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_N_1HQpE4o
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Last edited by Nico_Uru; July 22nd, 2009 at 10:39 PM.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:25 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
I went through this before, the destruction of the Palast--the former seat of the Socialist DDR--was a political act to bury that legacy. Those who supported the destruction of the Palast used, in large measure, the "totalitarian nightmare" of the DDR to justify why it should be torn down.
Well, that's your imagination more than fact. Otherwise why was the berliner fernsehturm not destroyed as well? That was a Propaganda construction of the DDR designed so high that those in the West could see it every day. Why, because unlike the Palace of the Republic, it is not UGLY.

In fact, it was more the other way around. Those that didn't want it destroyed were generally communists like yourself that had political motives for it to stay.

So, there is no point in you continuing this discussion unless you can come up with a valid reason why the DDR fernsehturm was not demolished and has no plans to be demolished, yet the DDR palace was.

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You yourself have used these excuses as reasons why the Palast should go,
No I have not. Read what I write and so many times I have written it has NOTHING to do with politics and ALL to do with being ugly.

The fact that you actually read something that is different to reality demonstrates something here. If you are willing to twist my words around in such a way to corrupt the reality of what I said, it is clear how you can twist anything around you to fit your own extreme political ideologies. And they are extreme if you support communism.

I did point out the horrors of the DDR and communism in general, but I never said those were reasons why it should be demolished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
These are inherently political acts. The construction of the Palace represents the old 'natural' German order of capitalism and liberal/enlightenment progressivism. I said in the thread that I would support the demolition of the Palast under the condition that a new building was built to signify a new Germany. The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.
You really live in a dream world. Have you even been to Berlin? I am thinking not, unless it was with your parents as a child.
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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:48 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico_Uru View Post
The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.
If you see the phantom of a Prussian kingdom being reborn where there's nothing but a healthy sense of aesthetics, then I cannot help you.

The rebuilding of historic cityscapes in Berlin and (not only) Eastern Germany is not at all a political issue. It's just the consequence of the aesthetical failure of post-war architecture.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 12:26 AM   #268
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Well, that's your imagination more than fact. Otherwise why was the berliner fernsehturm not destroyed as well?
A) its a tourist attraction, ergo money is to be made.
B) most Berliners support the building as a very important part of the city-scape.
C) most importantly, the building does not have the same political resonance that the Palast had; again I will point out for the 1000x, the building was the SEAT OF THE DDR.

In fact, it was more the other way around. Those that didn't want it destroyed were generally communists like yourself that had political motives for it to stay.

First off, I said that I would not be opposed to the demolition of the Palast, that is not the issue. The issue is why rebuild an overtly political symbol of the past over another symbol of the past? If you think its only because of aesthetics, I am not going to convince you otherwise. Secondly, I am a democratic-socialist not a communist, therefore I am not fan of the DDR.

Quote:
No I have not. Read what I write and so many times I have written it has NOTHING to do with politics and ALL to do with being ugly.
vs.

Quote:
I did point out the horrors of the DDR and communism in general, but I never said those were reasons why it should be demolished.
I am 100% sure that those value judgments you placed on the DDR has NO bearing on your evaluation of the buildings aesthetics or place in Berlin...please.

You really live in a dream world. Have you even been to Berlin? I am thinking not, unless it was with your parents as a child.

No I do not live in a dream world, I think you do. The whole purpose of political theory is to analyze what is NOT APPARENT, do you understand that concept? If you think I am out of this world read Foucault...
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:11 AM   #269
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Quote:
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A)
No I do not live in a dream world, I think you do. The whole purpose of political theory is to analyze what is NOT APPARENT, do you understand that concept? If you think I am out of this world read Foucault...
Almost everyone here disagrees with you. So, we're all living the dream eh
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:17 AM   #270
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The PdR wasn't the seat of the GDR since its parliament's sole role was to rubberstamp decisions made by the Politburo. Interestingly enough the real seat of the GDR (Staatsratsgebäude) has not been destroyed. Once again Nico's argument falls apart.

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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:24 AM   #271
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Almost everyone here disagrees with you. So, we're all living the dream eh

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, and so is your entire argument which has boiled down to this point. Thanks to the lack of rebuttal, says a lot more than what you do say.

The PdR wasn't the seat of the GDR since its parliament's sole role was to rubberstamp decisions made by the Politburo.

It was the official seat of the state...so my point still stands.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 01:26 AM   #272
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How is a parliament the official seat of the state? Your point doesn't stand at all since you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Plenty of GDR buildings have been renovated so there is no "capitalist" agenda behind all of this.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 02:06 AM   #273
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Bla bla bla...ergo the "palace" of the GDR is gone and there will be a beautiful "new" (and real) palace.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 02:15 AM   #274
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How is a parliament the official seat of the state? Your point doesn't stand at all since you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Plenty of GDR buildings have been renovated so there is no "capitalist" agenda behind all of this.
Because in socialist states there is no executive as there are in lib. democratic states. The head of the Communist party (Honecker and the Politburo) were the de facto heads of the government, but the building where they met was not SYMBOLICALLY at the centre of the state. The PdR was symbolically and officially the centre of East German life and government, located literally and strategically in the middle of Berlin. The parliament was de jure the seat of the state, since it represented the people's will not that of the party. The other DDR buildings were renovated because they could be transformed to make money and they are not SYMBOLIC of the regime. Alexander Platz now is full of advertising, therefore expunging it of all its socialist symbolism. However, the PdR is the symbol of the DDR and that could not be expunged; for example, the Reichstag, no matter what you do to it, will always be associated with the German state. Do you comprehend? Do I need a hammer and sickle to make it clear to you?
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 03:01 AM   #275
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After the switch to capitalism, not maintaining Socialist landmarks properly became a form of propaganda of the new economic system.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 11:02 AM   #276
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By the way, the federal government that first decided to demolish the PdR was a coalition of Social Democrats and Greens. Why should they intend to make propaganda against socialism? Please wake up, guys...
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 11:51 AM   #277
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Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, and so is your entire argument which has boiled down to this point. Thanks to the lack of rebuttal, says a lot more than what you do say.
Your point fails when you actually talk rubbish. Your statement is a bit like you claiming a blue shirt is actually red, when everyone else see's the red shirt execpt you. This is your delusion. The amazing thing is, that you are denying reality here by masking it in a cloud of political ideologies which have no substance outside of your own mind.

What makes this even worse is that you seem to harbour a personality in which when more people dissagree with you, instead of realizing that you may actually be wrong you simply reinforce your delusions. You build higher walls to protect your opinions and thoughts from interrogation.


Oh, and you have not even answered my question. Have you even been to Berlin?
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 11:56 AM   #278
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It's all about aesthetics. Read the official homepage of the donation organisation, if you don't believe it.


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Old July 24th, 2009, 03:44 AM   #279
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Your point fails when you actually talk rubbish. Your statement is a bit like you claiming a blue shirt is actually red, when everyone else see's the red shirt execpt you. This is your delusion.

Your ignorance is astounding, the fact is the "shirt is red" is socially constructed. Red, blue, etc. do not signify the actual colour of x, our socially accepted notion of what red or blue is. There was a famous experiment where a person was put in a room where they showed colours. The colour they showed was lets say, in our parlance, blue. The entire audience said, "red", eventually most of the individuals started to say red, even though they "knew" it was "blue". Who is being delusional here then? Because I do not conform with your, and the majority's "redist" interpretation? Unable, and unwilling to accept the world of the apparent?

The amazing thing is, that you are denying reality here by masking it in a cloud of political ideologies which have no substance outside of your own mind.

You argue as if you aren't...I love it. Well you believe you have the "truth and reality", I don't pretend to be God.

Oh, and you have not even answered my question. Have you even been to Berlin?

Yes I have 2 years ago...and I have many friends who are from Berlin and lived in East Germany as well.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 10:43 AM   #280
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Quote:
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You argue as if you aren't...I love it. Well you believe you have the "truth and reality", I don't pretend to be God.
Oh, you don't?

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The fact that they are rebuilding an old Palace is overtly political, its a signal to reestablishing the 'natural' order in Berlin both aesthetically and politically. If you cannot see behind the smoke and mirrors of appearances, then I cannot help you.
This reads as if you were the true keeper of wisdom, and everyone else around here is ignorant because they won't accept 'reality' as you defined it.

The fact ist that there are two different points of view, none of them being wrong or right. So you won't convince anyone here of your opinion, as well as we can't convince you of ours. The naked truth is that a building has been demolished and a different one is going to be built at the same place... anything else is left to interpretation.
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